Mentally Oddcast Transcript: Splatterpunk Hero: PJ Verfall
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00:00:00.04
Wednesday Lee Friday
You are listening to The Mentally Oddcast. My name is Wednesday Lee Friday, and we can be found on Ko-fi, that's K-O hyphen F-I, if you want to see who's coming up on the show, what we've been talking about, or show us a little support.
00:00:14.83
Wednesday Lee Friday
ah This week, we are talking to PJ Verfall, who is the author of four Splatterpunk novels with more coming. He writes Splatterpunk. splatter punk i should say not extreme and we'll get into the differences later ah He enjoys reading extremes. extreme, but he personally needs to have a method to the mayhem when he writes.
00:00:37.93
Wednesday Lee Friday
Um, dude we always start by asking guests to tell us about the first horror movie that they remember seeing So let's hear it.
00:00:46.31
PJ Verfall
I think this is ah almost going to be a disappointment, but... um It was actually the 31 Dracula. view
00:00:52.85
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh wow.
00:00:53.93
PJ Verfall
Yeah, the local PBS station used to run it every Halloween. Yeah.
00:00:57.51
Wednesday Lee Friday
Nice.
00:00:59.15
PJ Verfall
So my mom like decided. Well, he could see that. Little did she know that soon after that I would discover a Creature Double Feature and... See everything Hammer had ever done.
00:01:10.12
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right, right. And would you say that that like... I mean, I imagine that put you on a path if you were already craving horror at a young age.
00:01:21.70
PJ Verfall
Um... Yeah, no, ah creature having creature double feature, especially, I mean, like growing up in Philadelphia. You had... Creature Double Feature on 48 and over on 17.
00:01:33.64
PJ Verfall
you had Dr. Shock. So you had like... Choices. every Saturday for like what horror you wanted to watch.
00:01:40.85
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh wow.
00:01:42.65
PJ Verfall
Yeah. And then on top of it, like, you know, our parents. Well, I mean... We were practically free your range anyway, but... then on top of it it's like they're they're playing it on saturday on tv how bad could it be
00:01:55.63
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, that I think that was the thinking, because we had Sir Graves Gastly on Saturday, but then the next horror show was on a different channel, and that was our creature feature.
00:02:06.69
Wednesday Lee Friday
And so we actually had two in a row instead of having to choose. So I feel fortunate having heard what what you just said about having to to pick. I mean, yeah, options are always good, but give me give me all the horror. There are no TiVos yet. I want to see it all the time.
00:02:23.37
Wednesday Lee Friday
So... i guess what my question is then is how much time passed before between like the time you were first exposed to horror and the time you started creating it
00:02:35.28
PJ Verfall
Um... I mean I wrote for myself. for a long time. But I was busy with music.
00:02:42.92
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
00:02:44.78
PJ Verfall
you know, I've got duh. decades in punk rock at this point. And. um you know those were those were my two loves reading and music and Well, I got to do the first one. first and then you know I just eventually decided that you know enough... diddling around on my on my own time, I'd actually see if I could actually...
00:03:07.45
PJ Verfall
Oh, I hate to use these words, but... Live up to my potential.
00:03:11.81
Wednesday Lee Friday
yeah so So have you? Have you lived up to your potential?
00:03:17.57
PJ Verfall
Well, I'm ah pretty sure that depends on who you ask.
00:03:22.69
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, I know that feeling.
00:03:24.66
PJ Verfall
if you ask
00:03:25.09
Wednesday Lee Friday
Um.
00:03:25.80
PJ Verfall
If you ask my teacher from my ah second grade gifted class. Probably not.
00:03:33.56
Wednesday Lee Friday
uh-huh Yeah, I was often told that I was nowhere near my potential. And, you know, in hindsight, it's like, well, if any one of you assholes would have diagnosed by ADHD or autism, maybe we could have worked on that. But alas.
00:03:49.73
Wednesday Lee Friday
um Females in the 70s and 80s, no, nobody knew how to do that. Um, Okay, so let's talk splatterpunk. Now, I recently tried my hand at some splatterpunk for the first time.
00:04:02.83
Wednesday Lee Friday
and Because typically I'm into like psychological horror, black comedy, stuff like that. So... What made you choose Splatterpunk as a focus?
00:04:12.11
PJ Verfall
well um The first book, i have I have to admit, Faceless was written, I was coming off a knee surgery and stuck in a chair. And cranky.
00:04:23.57
PJ Verfall
I mean, it
00:04:23.92
Wednesday Lee Friday
so So it was cathartic.
00:04:26.55
PJ Verfall
Yeah, I just, you know... you can't do anything. You're just stuck sitting there. you're you're irritated with the whole world and anything you want to do is verboten. but you do have a laptop.
00:04:36.18
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mhm.
00:04:39.11
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay. So how how did that translate in your first book? like If we read your first book, could we tell that you were going through something at the time?
00:04:48.38
PJ Verfall
It's the nastiest of the four books. it's definitely I mean, it's got a definite viewpoint. It's got definitely something to say. Um, But it is also the most...
00:05:01.13
PJ Verfall
Fine. If you want to play, let's play. Mm.
00:05:03.83
Wednesday Lee Friday
Nice. I love it. I love it. Now, you know that there is a difference between Splatterpunk and extreme horror. Now, my guess is that the distinction is about...
00:05:17.29
Wednesday Lee Friday
whether or not a story has sociopolitical elements. Am I understanding that right?
00:05:23.42
PJ Verfall
ah mean More or less, it's basically... In Splatterpunk, the the the mayhem is to try and... Say something else. you know and in extreme the mayhem that's the point
00:05:39.27
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
00:05:40.16
PJ Verfall
You know and both are equally valid and equally fun.
00:05:40.91
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah.
00:05:42.68
PJ Verfall
It's just like you know i It's just how I write. Like I can't get
00:05:48.77
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah. I'm not sure that I would say, and and this is like a personal opinion about my own tastes. I would say that extreme horror is less.
00:06:00.98
Wednesday Lee Friday
vital and important than splatterpunk just because of of how I view the purpose of art. You know? and that I read a book once. It was it was sent to me as an ARC, and that's the main reason I finished it.
00:06:16.03
Wednesday Lee Friday
Um, And it was just about these two dudes, these two young privileged a-holes that took this trip and all they wanted to do was take drugs and hurt people.
00:06:27.65
Wednesday Lee Friday
And. It was awful. it was just like the whole thing was awful from beginning to end and like the writing was certainly immersive i was feeling how awful it was but i kept waiting for there to be some sort of theme some kind of moral statement, something, anything just saying that this is wrong.
00:06:48.35
Wednesday Lee Friday
And, you know, one of them got effed up physically, but... It wasn't. You know, it was just a ah stroke of of luck. so i don't I don't understand the value of that kind of writing personally.
00:07:02.31
Wednesday Lee Friday
But I would. I would guess that it's the same kind of escapism. that like people who read romance novels. Like, no, this is this is not real. This is not real life. It's just something I want to feel right now. Is is that is that possible?
00:07:16.75
PJ Verfall
Yeah, no, actually... um I think a lot of horror is actually, it's... the reason to read it is not that far off from reading fantasy. you know, it's just, it's a just different way to go with it. um And that's, you know, that's fine and dandy. i mean i i Lord knows I read enough of it. Um.
00:07:37.72
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:07:38.69
PJ Verfall
but you know, it's sort of like Some some days you're in the mood. for Friday the 13th, and some days you're in the mood for Frontiers.
00:07:48.62
Wednesday Lee Friday
Who is in the mood for Frontiers? Other than that guy being... unmistakably incredibly hot i don't just because he's hot like in another movie have you seen um He loves me.
00:08:01.47
Wednesday Lee Friday
He loves me not. With ah Audrey Tattoo.
00:08:04.38
PJ Verfall
No.
00:08:05.73
Wednesday Lee Friday
She's a... um erotic maniac and she's in love with uh samuel lebanon who's the main guy from frontiers and uh Yeah, it's it's something else, man. But...
00:08:17.82
Wednesday Lee Friday
yeah that's that's the thing is that if it's a bright sunny day and i'm like in a mood to watch some horror I don't... I mean, like, Saw is probably not what I'm going to put in. Hostel is is probably not where I'm going with that.
00:08:31.71
Wednesday Lee Friday
But. at the same time i might be just as likely to what like we watched uh bad cgi gator like that's literally the title we watched that last night So, so I get it.
00:08:43.57
PJ Verfall
I like the truth in advertising, actually.
00:08:44.04
Wednesday Lee Friday
i mean right right i mean it's it's like even more snakes on a plane than snakes on a plane
00:08:52.75
PJ Verfall
No, so some some part of me really appreciates just going, yeah, just crappy CGI gator. doing stuff.
00:08:58.36
Wednesday Lee Friday
well and you don't find out until halfway through the movie that it can fly because it's bad CGI and nobody cares. mm-hmm
00:09:07.88
PJ Verfall
Honestly, I've Recently went back and watched the original Anaconda. And... I had a much fonder opinion of that film than it deserved.
00:09:18.68
Wednesday Lee Friday
ah Yeah, it it's pretty cartoony when you watch it now.
00:09:23.62
PJ Verfall
Oh.
00:09:23.58
Wednesday Lee Friday
I'll tell you what, though. That new Anaconda with ah with Jack Black and and Paul Rudd.
00:09:29.52
PJ Verfall
Mm hmm.
00:09:30.51
Wednesday Lee Friday
that shit is hilarious i enjoyed it way, way more than I thought I would and far more than the original.
00:09:38.40
PJ Verfall
But yeah, no, ah like... it was actually john worse than the cgi in that film was john voight's accent
00:09:45.20
Wednesday Lee Friday
ah Yes, that's true. I kind of wonder how much money he made for that movie. because Yeah. That's one of those things where it's like, oh, did he need to re-up his SAG insurance or what? because Yikes.
00:10:00.70
Wednesday Lee Friday
Of course, it also seems like Eric Stoltz showed up, looked around, saw what kind of movie he was in.
00:10:00.83
PJ Verfall
from
00:10:05.68
Wednesday Lee Friday
And, ah you know. got bit on the wang and had to hide out for most of the movie.
00:10:13.01
PJ Verfall
And was probably...
00:10:13.05
Wednesday Lee Friday
Whoops.
00:10:14.24
PJ Verfall
was probably quite happy about that.
00:10:16.57
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right? Exactly. Like yeah, I'll just read this script. They sent me for Caprica Um... All right. So, um,
00:10:28.22
Wednesday Lee Friday
Well, who who are you reading in extreme? who Like, if i I don't know anything about extreme horror and I want to get into it, who do you recommend?
00:10:35.47
PJ Verfall
Um, let's see, Robert Essig. uh C commas are... And. Like... after that we start to get into arguments about who's extreme And who's...
00:10:49.67
PJ Verfall
Splatterpunk. like I actually like the the honesty Judith Sonnet has with it.
00:10:51.69
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
00:10:54.35
PJ Verfall
She'll like point to some of her books and go, that's extreme. And she'll point to other books and go, but that's splatterpunk. You know, and I think um there's an ongoing argument with, with wrath.
00:11:06.08
PJ Verfall
James White about whether or not.
00:11:07.46
Wednesday Lee Friday
Uh huh.
00:11:09.24
PJ Verfall
And... You know, I think that's the same thing with his stuff. It's like sometimes it's just extreme and sometimes... yeah, there's something deeper that he's trying to get to here.
00:11:20.49
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
00:11:21.64
PJ Verfall
But like your Essex is usually pretty. straightforward, extreme. RJ Benetti. like bizarro extreme. Um...
00:11:32.56
PJ Verfall
Stuart Bray is pretty extreme. Jason Nicky. I mean... there's a lot of good writing happening out there. That's why I was like, you know, I always take the attitudes like. look, make sure it's understood. I don't dislike extreme.
00:11:46.32
PJ Verfall
You know, and I'm like, like even.
00:11:47.68
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
00:11:48.67
PJ Verfall
Film wise, I'm like perfectly happy, you know. My wife and I were watching Jason X the other night. so Like I have no high ground.
00:11:57.70
Wednesday Lee Friday
Hehehehehehe. Yeah, I feel that way as well. Because you look at all the bad shark movies on Tubi and it's like, we've seen all these.
00:12:03.00
PJ Verfall
You know, I...
00:12:08.36
PJ Verfall
Yeah, it's like...
00:12:08.47
Wednesday Lee Friday
I don't want to watch the Shark and Saw prison break nightmare again. work
00:12:14.04
PJ Verfall
Yeah. But.
00:12:15.26
Wednesday Lee Friday
have Actually, have you have you seen the Shark and Saw Prison Break Nightmare? Because that's the movie that stars all the porn stars. Tracy Lourdes is a police detective trying to figure out what's going on with the prison break. Everybody in it's a porn star.
00:12:28.79
PJ Verfall
I'm sure it has to be better than the the last Danzig film where he hired nothing but porn stars.
00:12:36.90
PJ Verfall
I mean...
00:12:36.96
Wednesday Lee Friday
I bet so.
00:12:37.89
PJ Verfall
I made it like 10 minutes into Verodica and it's like. Even I went, okay, life is too short.
00:12:43.43
Wednesday Lee Friday
he Wow. Wow.
00:12:47.98
PJ Verfall
You know, I
00:12:48.10
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay, so here's... Here's a philosophical question for you. Who ultimately gets to decide? whether a work is splatterpunk or extreme is it the readers is it the publisher or the creator
00:13:03.26
PJ Verfall
Well... I... You know, it's like I'd have to say the creator just because they know what they were going for. If you don't get it, that's, you know, that still doesn't change what he was going or he or she were going for or they are.
00:13:15.53
PJ Verfall
you know, there there was still a point to it. you know Not everybody's going to get it. Um...
00:13:23.08
PJ Verfall
you know, it's I mean... Like you could you could watch a film like A La Interior. And you can see it in two totally different ways. If you want to just see it as a blood festival. Yeah, you can totally see it that way.
00:13:35.40
PJ Verfall
you know And I could see how you could see it that way. Now, if you want to see it as a treatise on... um responsibility in motherhood. You could also do that. It's just... you know,
00:13:46.10
PJ Verfall
The viewer, like... They create their own perspective of how they see something, but it doesn't change how it was created.
00:13:55.10
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay. All right. Now, what about... In terms of people that. Like ah creators that don't. Really? like or value the work that they're best known for like Tchaikovsky hated the Nutcracker Suite he thought it was it was like his worst work and
00:14:14.73
Wednesday Lee Friday
And that, to me, like, that's the thing that everyone thinks of when they think of Tchaikovsky. Or Alec Guinness, you know? He did not like Star Wars. He was embarrassed that he was in it. He thought it was a pain in the ass. How many people recognized him from it? so You know, I mean, sure, they're allowed to feel that way. But as somebody who intakes a lot of media, I mean.
00:14:37.05
Wednesday Lee Friday
Ouch! You know?
00:14:39.55
PJ Verfall
At the same time, it's like... You know, what once you've made the decision to be in something or write something. and release it. it's kind of out of your hands
00:14:50.46
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. Yep.
00:14:52.38
PJ Verfall
You know, it's it's out in the world now and people are going to perceive it how they want to perceive it. And, you know. All you can do is take an attitude of, well, if you ask me. This is what I actually wanted.
00:15:06.26
PJ Verfall
But I don't...
00:15:06.96
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
00:15:06.65
PJ Verfall
i you know at the At the same time, it's like... you You did it. You put it out in the world. you know, the, like, Tchaikovsky, and I actually agree with his opinion on this, that that it is his poorest work. Um,
00:15:22.46
PJ Verfall
And this is just because my grandfather was very into Tchaikovsky and I know these things, unfortunately. Okay. Um, yeah At the same time, you always had the shred it and never let it see the light of day option.
00:15:37.62
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. Or, you know, you could pull a Stephen King and then years later just be like, you know what, that's out of print now and it's staying there.
00:15:46.53
PJ Verfall
I mean, McCammon did that for years. His first four books were out of print for years because he thought he was still learning to be a writer when he wrote them.
00:15:55.12
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, wow. I did not know that.
00:15:58.15
PJ Verfall
Yeah, he had to be talked back into it. And like it's a shame, too, that he felt that way. because like And again, this comes back to it. Bill. as a book is Splatterpunk before there was Splatterpunk. The word hadn't even been like, nobody had come up with the word yet, but. It's...
00:16:14.49
PJ Verfall
Definitely there.
00:16:17.29
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wow, who did invent the term? Do you know? Was it Craig Spector?
00:16:19.79
PJ Verfall
Um... No. Oh. God, I forget. I'm so terrible with names when put on. On the spot, no. it um Judas is going to... Kill me for this if she hears this.
00:16:34.43
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, no.
00:16:36.24
PJ Verfall
Like I do know.
00:16:36.67
Wednesday Lee Friday
No death.
00:16:39.11
PJ Verfall
I do know who did it, but no, it was like from a a ah short story piece at first. It was like... came up with around like 1984, I think.
00:16:48.34
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, wow. Okay.
00:16:50.07
PJ Verfall
But yeah, that's like just just after they thirst and bail. which would both have... If they had come out in 1988, it would have both been classified as splatterpunk, I'm sure of it.
00:17:01.20
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay. Well, yeah, and that's a weird thing because... We don't generally change how we're categorizing something. even if the industry itself changes. You know what I mean?
00:17:15.66
PJ Verfall
that's Yeah, that's like one one of those things. It's like, you know, it just came out. And it's considered like, you know, the old doorstop horror. selections of the time. And it's like, no, these are.
00:17:26.53
PJ Verfall
No. I mean, they're two of my favorite books, so I'm glad i'm glad he finally relented and put them back into print. but
00:17:35.74
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah.
00:17:37.46
PJ Verfall
I mean, It's not my favorite McCammon, though. and Oddly enough like I consider a boy's l- boy's life like its own thing it's it's separate Um...
00:17:49.38
PJ Verfall
But my favorite of his horror books is actually... um Nightwalk.
00:17:56.54
Wednesday Lee Friday
I have not read that.
00:18:00.17
PJ Verfall
That, I think... um Hold up a second I actually am going to do something real quick on the computer since I'm stuck on it anyway. Might as well get some use out of the thing.
00:18:14.73
PJ Verfall
Um... Yeah, I mean Mystery Walk, sorry. two boatat two Two book names like crowded into my head at the same time. Nightboat and Mystery Walker.
00:18:25.03
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
00:18:25.80
PJ Verfall
But mystery Mystery Walk was, I mean, that's the that was like the one he kept in print for the longest time. After he took Bale, Nightboat. They thirst and Bethany sin out.
00:18:39.62
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay. is that Is that something you think you might ever do as ah as a writer to like just take something out of print or not? not put it back into print after it runs out.
00:18:51.66
PJ Verfall
Um... No. I... Okay. I generally take an attitude of it. It's... It fit the moment. And if it did, if if it wasn't, you know, if you're looking at like.
00:19:00.94
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
00:19:06.15
PJ Verfall
A couple of months of writing the book. Months upon months of revisions.
00:19:10.90
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:19:10.92
PJ Verfall
and never bailing on it in that entire time, then something about it spoke to you at that time. So it's it it If it's at nothing else, it's at least a window and into that time period of your life.
00:19:25.50
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay. Alright.
00:19:27.81
PJ Verfall
You know, and I...
00:19:27.95
Wednesday Lee Friday
Interesting.
00:19:29.05
PJ Verfall
i don't I wouldn't feel comfortable going around... Playing. Um, electroshock therapy with my memories that way. as it were.
00:19:40.55
Wednesday Lee Friday
Huh. That's an interesting way to to put it because, yeah, now yeah it's well known that. There are books that Stephen King does not remember writing.
00:19:51.60
Wednesday Lee Friday
Because, you know, cocaine's a hell of a drug. so that's i mean i don't know anytime i'm talking about horror publishing or philosophy of publishing.
00:20:03.63
Wednesday Lee Friday
My mind can't go to anybody else but Stephen King unless there's like a specific incident. and two of the things that really stick out to me are like rage not being in print anymore. Because personally.
00:20:15.78
Wednesday Lee Friday
I felt so seen by that book. You know, like the abused kid that nobody really knows what's going on in their house. And it's a time in history when nobody talks about it.
00:20:26.43
Wednesday Lee Friday
And but at the same time. I. can certainly understand why he would not want a book about a school shooter to be out loud and and proud. And I guess a couple of shooters had it in their possession.
00:20:38.24
PJ Verfall
Yeah, that's that's it that's a tough one because...
00:20:38.29
Wednesday Lee Friday
Um.
00:20:43.19
PJ Verfall
I mean, that's just a tough one because on one side, it's like how the book was intended. you know, And on the other side, there's like, you know, that personal responsibility and, you know.
00:20:54.65
PJ Verfall
I think it... M- I think we've seen enough of these things to know. If somebody's going to do something like that. it's It could be anything.
00:21:07.80
PJ Verfall
You know, I...
00:21:08.22
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep.
00:21:10.09
PJ Verfall
you know And I hate to say that. it but Because it sounds so defeatist, but... you know Like... If you look at Mark David Chapman. He was going to do something horrific sooner or later.
00:21:23.28
PJ Verfall
And I don't.
00:21:23.53
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:21:24.42
PJ Verfall
And as much as I dislike the book Catcher in the Rye, I still don't think it was JD Salinger's fault.
00:21:30.36
Wednesday Lee Friday
No of course not. you know any more than the Beatles are responsible for the Manson family murders. You know, the the fact that. A bad person. likes a good thing and then does bad things with with that.
00:21:44.85
Wednesday Lee Friday
you know. you you can't You can't really blame the artist. I mean... you know. Any more than like, oh, you saw a taxi driver and then you.
00:21:54.65
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wait, what did you do? No, don't don't do that.
00:21:56.57
PJ Verfall
Yeah.
00:21:58.42
Wednesday Lee Friday
Don't do that. Because I'll tell you what, I made a flippant taxi driver joke online.
00:22:01.23
PJ Verfall
hu
00:22:06.40
Wednesday Lee Friday
And two days later, they staged that thing in Butler, PA. And... ah Yeah, I did not get a an exact visit from the FBI.
00:22:18.78
Wednesday Lee Friday
i think because the f I had already been like low-key questioned by the FBI because one of my upstairs neighbors... This is years ago when I still had a day job.
00:22:29.80
Wednesday Lee Friday
but she reported me for getting strange packages with Arabic writing on it. And it was incense.
00:22:34.69
PJ Verfall
oh for God's sake.
00:22:35.49
Wednesday Lee Friday
i was I was ordering Nag Champa. But they talked to me. They talked to two friends. And they I'm told they called my work. Because I had worn my my job at the time. I'm like, well, this happened to me. So if anybody calls, this is what it's about.
00:22:51.31
Wednesday Lee Friday
um which is probably also what a terrorist would say. I don't i don't know. I don't think I know any terrorists. um But... But yeah.
00:23:01.100
PJ Verfall
Ugh! I don't know, like, after you've done the investigation, you've got to be sitting there as an FBI agent going, Yeah, this was a good use of my time. mm-hmm
00:23:10.50
Wednesday Lee Friday
exactly exactly and i'm sure that a lot of it is just such bullshit you know especially now when they're like hassling people about making a post online or you know stupid crap like that
00:23:22.92
PJ Verfall
Yeah, the 86-47 thing was just, oh, come on.
00:23:23.27
Wednesday Lee Friday
Like, you know... Oh, for goodness sake. yet meanwhile you know the the bad guys are literally threatening to unalive people so Yeah.
00:23:35.67
Wednesday Lee Friday
so So here's my next question. With regard to writing. How would you respond to people who say, that horror doesn't need so much gore to be scary.
00:23:48.20
PJ Verfall
Oh, it doesn't. I mean... And it also doesn't need so much atmosphere to be scary and it doesn't need so many creatures. it Horror works for you because it works the way it works.
00:24:03.67
PJ Verfall
Um, For you. you know, uh, There's no problem with... Malfi's...
00:24:14.54
PJ Verfall
you know, His his style of... ah Grief. um horror there's no problem with Tamara Thorne's gothic stuff. And there's no problem with...
00:24:26.75
PJ Verfall
Christopher Triano you know, they they all like They all work for their audience. And it doesn't doesn't suddenly make it not horror.
00:24:40.50
Wednesday Lee Friday
I'm so happy that you brought up Tamara Cross because ah she and Alistair are actually my guest. um Next week, but like last week in terms of. I think it will have aired last week by the time this this airs.
00:24:54.07
Wednesday Lee Friday
But yeah, I just had them on is my point. They're so great. I love those guys. And you are so right that. there are The reason there are different kinds of horror, and indeed different genres in the first place, is because we're all looking for different things. you know, people that have a really stressful life might want. super mindless or simple or cozy fiction.
00:25:17.33
Wednesday Lee Friday
Whereas some people want to be challenged all the time or they want to feel, you know, borderline off their game because it keeps them sharp. I mean, we're all looking for different things in our horror.
00:25:28.72
Wednesday Lee Friday
And then sometimes... some genre that you don't really consider your genre comes your way and you're like, well. I now have a new perspective on things because I read this new thing that I wouldn't normally read.
00:25:43.00
PJ Verfall
Yeah, I mean, it's like there's... I don't think... Horror is one of those, you know it when you see it. Sort of things.
00:25:50.53
Wednesday Lee Friday
Sure, sure
00:25:50.80
PJ Verfall
um And there there are a lot of things like that in life. It's like, Like, I can't always tell you when a joke isn't... Piss poor taste. But I can usually get a ah feel on some of them.
00:26:04.84
PJ Verfall
you know,
00:26:06.09
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:26:07.16
PJ Verfall
usually anything the orange one says, for instance.
00:26:10.36
Wednesday Lee Friday
Hmm. Yeah. so I am aware that you live with chronic anxiety disorder. Now, I'm not a doctor, obviously. um But lately, more and more.
00:26:25.71
Wednesday Lee Friday
I really question the whether or not... anxiety or even chronic anxiety is a disorder. because the world is is fucked up and it's hardly disordered to feel anxious about it. you know? So do you feel like your anxiety is incongruous to the life that you live?
00:26:47.32
PJ Verfall
Um... It reached a point of... Too much. like not everything in life is fight or flight. But in my head, it became everything was fight or flight.
00:27:01.23
PJ Verfall
Um, you know, I was working on editing a book and i I shut down. I couldn't deal with it. Like I couldn't think. clearly enough because I was so frightened all the time.
00:27:13.78
PJ Verfall
to see what the editor was trying to say.
00:27:17.60
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wow.
00:27:19.78
PJ Verfall
Oh yeah, when it gets... Like... And the thing is... is Speaking of the orange one... Um. I was able to keep it pretty much so under wraps with like a little bit of CBD and.
00:27:33.22
PJ Verfall
vigorous outdoor activities. for years and him getting reelected was like something snapped.
00:27:40.09
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh yeah. Yeah.
00:27:42.81
PJ Verfall
You know, and it's it's not even...
00:27:47.83
PJ Verfall
It's not even all the bad he can do. It's also seeing everything that he's done. Seeing that he left the country pretty much so a smoking crater the last time he was in office. And watching a quarter of the people.
00:28:00.59
PJ Verfall
that you have to be around all the time, go, yeah, I want some more of that.
00:28:06.97
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah. I mean personally I don't think that That win was legit. But... Even if it's not, we all know personally. way too many people that are either indifferent or cool with it.
00:28:23.36
Wednesday Lee Friday
And. how How are you supposed to work next to someone like that? How are you supposed to see him at Thanksgiving? Like, how how do you? You know?
00:28:32.83
PJ Verfall
Yeah, it's like, I mean... Like I said, even even if you wanted to have a very selfish attitude attitude toward politics. It's my problems, and those are the only ones that matter. Even if you wanted to take it.
00:28:43.70
Wednesday Lee Friday
who
00:28:44.52
PJ Verfall
Take that attitude. He left the country a smoking crater the last time.
00:28:50.01
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:28:51.23
PJ Verfall
How on earth can you look at that and go ah like, Give them another shot.
00:28:57.02
Wednesday Lee Friday
Well, you know.
00:28:57.16
PJ Verfall
You know.
00:28:57.85
Wednesday Lee Friday
I guess that depends on how seriously you take trans kids in junior high sports or something. I mean, that's that's one of the things I find myself saying online a lot when people are whining, oh, I lost my farm.
00:29:10.98
Wednesday Lee Friday
Well, yeah, but you know, the softball team is saved. You can just take solace in that, right? dicks um and that's it's so it's It's just so appalling.
00:29:23.22
Wednesday Lee Friday
How many people were because I mean. I think part of the issue is that Republicans are so used to Democrats saving their asses and making sure that Republicans can't do all the horrible things that they want to do.
00:29:38.68
Wednesday Lee Friday
that they really didn't appreciate. what they wanted to do. They published Project 2025. And then. People said it was a hoax and I mean they everything was right there You know, it's like a Mark Duplass movie. Like they're saying over and over again, what's going to happen. And you're just standing there like, wow, this is really interesting. You know, like, no.
00:30:01.39
Wednesday Lee Friday
So... Obviously. that is going to make a lot of people anxious but you're right that it isn't so much about whether or not. Things are going well as.
00:30:13.74
Wednesday Lee Friday
as how well you personally are able to to live your life in spite of everything that's going on and yeah they're they're Sounds like you got to a point where...
00:30:25.31
Wednesday Lee Friday
you decided some help was in order.
00:30:27.99
PJ Verfall
Yeah.
00:30:28.57
Wednesday Lee Friday
so So what happened next?
00:30:31.41
PJ Verfall
Um... Well, after some talking to a... ah Psychiatrist and It just basically, you know.
00:30:43.41
PJ Verfall
The magic of Prozac. I mean... um Yeah. But it basically... You know, it's funny, people don't like like to talk about it, but like really when it reaches this point with PTSD and and anxiety disorder. It's just like.
00:30:59.17
PJ Verfall
it does it like They call them happy pills. It's like, no, it's it's not happy pills. It just turns the volume down on my panic.
00:31:07.77
PJ Verfall
You know, it's
00:31:07.73
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. Yep. It allows you to function.
00:31:09.51
PJ Verfall
Yep. Yeah, it's just turning the volume down. That's that's all it is. it's like you know And I was really worried about it. like i was like Because I've seen people get... Mike. misdiagnosed or put on the wrong stuff in like total zombie mode.
00:31:23.78
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep, yep. I sure have.
00:31:27.02
PJ Verfall
you know, and um So I was very resistant to the idea, but it like... That was actually my wife's first clue that something was really bad was like, yeah, I'm i'm cool. yeah You want to give me a pro sec? Cool.
00:31:39.54
PJ Verfall
Go. I'm good with that. Please God, something.
00:31:45.73
Wednesday Lee Friday
So in general, did you have support from friends and family while you were going through this?
00:31:50.98
PJ Verfall
Oh, my wife has been like right there with me the whole way.
00:31:54.70
Wednesday Lee Friday
That's awesome. That is great because these kinds of things can be really hard on partners. it's For some people, it's difficult to not take your partner's moods.
00:32:05.91
Wednesday Lee Friday
personally. You know. And that that can make it more difficult to be supportive. My husband is is also... you know, pretty much a saint in that way. He has like a superhuman ability not to take my moods personally.
00:32:20.51
Wednesday Lee Friday
but Still, I think i I put him through far more than he deserves. So in hindsight, is there anything that you wish that you had? that that would have helped.
00:32:32.12
Wednesday Lee Friday
that process uh maybe get handled sooner or better or would you say that overall it it went pretty well
00:32:40.71
PJ Verfall
No, it did. like Like I said, I mean you know i i had kept my anxiety pretty much so under wraps. and manageable with just A little bit of...
00:32:53.19
PJ Verfall
little bit of um you know, ah CBD oil here and there. and
00:32:57.90
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:32:58.80
PJ Verfall
You know and everything was going cool, and then it's just when it went south it just was like...
00:33:06.85
PJ Verfall
I mean, it was it was a switch. I mean, I stopped i stopped watching late night TV because it's like, I don't want to joke about politics. you know, there's.
00:33:14.34
Wednesday Lee Friday
Sure.
00:33:15.17
PJ Verfall
There's nothing funny anymore. You know, and it it just became that way. And it's like. I mean, I used to write horror comedy and it's like, I can't. Like, I don't have that in me right now.
00:33:28.13
PJ Verfall
you know, it's
00:33:28.93
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, it's it's hard to be openly funny. It's easy to be like sarcastic or sardonic. You know, but... But yeah, just like... Kraken wit. Is.
00:33:39.95
Wednesday Lee Friday
it's It's tough now, certainly.
00:33:42.46
PJ Verfall
Yeah, well, I mean, I'm Polish, so gallows humor is sort of like a thing we do. It's a feature.
00:33:47.67
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, me too, actually. My birth name was Sarzynski. Wednesday, Lee Sarsinski. But then my mom got a divorce and I had a bunch of different names for a while. um But yeah.
00:33:58.86
PJ Verfall
But yeah.
00:33:59.08
Wednesday Lee Friday
I get it. Um. Okay, so you... also live with PTSD. Um. And PTSD and anxiety.
00:34:09.94
Wednesday Lee Friday
bestest friends they're the chocolate and peanut butter of mental illness um And these are things that we see in a lot of people who write horror. Um.
00:34:21.03
Wednesday Lee Friday
i think writers in general use fiction to to work out their own issues so How do PTSD and anxiety find their way into your writing?
00:34:31.98
PJ Verfall
Uh... Um... Well... I mean, kind of all the time. I mean... you know, faceless for all that it's a. Just... brutal book. I mean, at at its base is...
00:34:45.17
PJ Verfall
me screaming that like the whole whole reason the world is screwed up is because we don't look at each other as people.
00:34:51.54
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:34:51.76
PJ Verfall
And the Internet's just made it worse and worse and worse. You know, we don't... we can look at a number like. 30 ,000 killed in this conflict. and, like, not even blink.
00:35:03.58
PJ Verfall
And it's like, no, that was 30 ,000 people. They had hopes. They had dreams. They had things they wanted to do with their life. They had goals. you know, And we don't even view it that way. We just 30 ,000 on to sports.
00:35:20.71
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, you're right.
00:35:23.71
PJ Verfall
You know, and it's like, basically I created a character who. openly views The whole world, the way. We tend to view. A lot of it.
00:35:35.71
PJ Verfall
you know, and it's like, So... You know, and like. I mean, um, our emotions make us monsters is about how. Easily we can be manipulated by our emotions and how... if we let our emotions get out of control.
00:35:50.78
PJ Verfall
They manipulate us just all on their own. Um, Canis lupus humanis is about... you know We all have instincts that like, you know. We need...
00:36:02.48
PJ Verfall
You know. But if we... Create a personality based on our instincts. we become a monster.
00:36:13.84
PJ Verfall
You know, it's like every time, every time you hear. Like... quote unquote locker room talk, that's like basic human instincts gone way too far because somebody made it their whole personality.
00:36:26.97
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:36:28.28
PJ Verfall
you know And in the last one, it's just discussed that... Over and over. Horrible things happen. Like 13 kisses. And it's like.
00:36:42.05
PJ Verfall
If you're rich enough, if you're powerful enough, you just skate.
00:36:47.06
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah. Well, that's the thing about... so many laws being punishable by a fine. And that just means that... For rich people, it's not a law. It's a suggestion.
00:36:59.22
PJ Verfall
You know, and it's like... Actually, right now. um Speaking of being triggered and... PTSD. I would like to thank Vivek Ramaswamy for being a complete bastard.
00:37:11.35
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, my God. i that I don't know ah how often you listen or if you know anything about my past, but my mom was my first abuser. And we have not. spoken since the 90s. And if a politician...
00:37:27.67
Wednesday Lee Friday
Offered her $100. to trash talk me on TV and make me look bad. I have no doubt whatsoever that she would do it. It would not be true.
00:37:38.98
Wednesday Lee Friday
You know?
00:37:39.46
PJ Verfall
it If you've listened to the... Okay. If you've listened to... Any abuser talk about the whole thing long after the fact. You know, if you've tried to have a conversation with your own abuser, it's like, why the hell did you do this to me?
00:37:54.65
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, you're exaggerating.
00:37:54.83
PJ Verfall
The new...
00:37:55.90
Wednesday Lee Friday
You're making it up. You don't remember it right.
00:37:58.03
PJ Verfall
It wasn't that bad. Um,
00:38:00.03
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep, yep. why are you still complaining about that why why do you still care why why why
00:38:01.19
PJ Verfall
Basically...
00:38:06.07
Wednesday Lee Friday
why Why do you want me to feel bad? What good does that do? I'm sorry. i'm Getting a little ah triggered myself here.
00:38:10.75
PJ Verfall
But, yeah. yeah But... that That commercial and that horrible, horrible excuse for a mother, that was note note note for note, wrote for wrote, no notes. That that was perfect.
00:38:25.25
Wednesday Lee Friday
And did you see? Trump's reaction when a reporter questioned him about it because he had spoke out in favor of of the mother. And again, Against Amy Acton, obviously. But um a reporter said, well.
00:38:39.45
Wednesday Lee Friday
The mother chose to stay with the abuser. The abuser was charged. The brother confirms the story. This is all well established. Does that change your opinion? And he said, no. Just straight up no.
00:38:53.06
Wednesday Lee Friday
And obviously, on the one hand,
00:38:52.92
PJ Verfall
No, no, it's like. Yeah.
00:38:56.03
Wednesday Lee Friday
He's a rapist, so of course he's gonna support the rapist. He thinks rape is either an oopsie or it's nobody's business. That's just a thing that happens between people sometimes.
00:39:06.98
Wednesday Lee Friday
you know.
00:39:07.18
PJ Verfall
Yeah, um...
00:39:08.47
Wednesday Lee Friday
And there's a whole facet of society that's right there with him nodding, even women that are like, yeah, as a woman, that's something you just got to tolerate and you need to be careful so it happens less often. Like, no, you bitch.
00:39:20.81
Wednesday Lee Friday
that's not okay it's never okay i will tell you i want a tangent just a tiny little bit here Um... I saw a post recently about, I don't even know if it's real, but it was about John Lennon standing up for someone at their wedding. And there was a wedding picture that may or may not have been AI. But the discussion was that John Lennon was standing up for some famous person at their wedding.
00:39:45.69
Wednesday Lee Friday
And I said, wow, why would you ask a wife beater to stand up for you at your wedding? That's gross. And... I got lambasted. by people's like, oh yeah, somebody always has to bring up that he's a wife beater.
00:39:59.23
Wednesday Lee Friday
Well, yeah, because that's not his reputation.
00:39:59.47
PJ Verfall
Well, yeah.
00:40:02.69
Wednesday Lee Friday
And the thing is that going soft on this, just excusing it and saying it's okay or pretending that it's... somehow overridden by a nice song or the fact that he didn't die very well i mean that's That's why we're where we are now.
00:40:19.61
Wednesday Lee Friday
because people won't say, no, I don't care how much fucking money he has. He hurt people. He needs to be consequenced. I'm not saying, you know, shoot him in the street like ISIS after him, but I'm saying.
00:40:31.57
Wednesday Lee Friday
These people need to be charged. I don't know why Democrats aren't. bringing up impeachment. Proceedings like every day somebody should be filing for impeachment and they could there's enough crimes and it would drive him insane, but they're not. doing it. I'm so fucking sick of this. Democrat.
00:40:50.27
Wednesday Lee Friday
uh malaise that's going on this indifference to you know that and that's really it i'm sick of the indifference Because we citizens don't have the power to do. what needs to be done.
00:41:04.13
Wednesday Lee Friday
and Democrats in Congress do, they don't have the votes, but there are things that they could be doing that they're not doing. I'm going to shut up now because I hate when I take over the conversation during the interviews and I'm so bad at it.
00:41:17.65
Wednesday Lee Friday
Because that's the thing.
00:41:18.09
PJ Verfall
No.
00:41:18.20
Wednesday Lee Friday
The best interviews are where the guest talks because the guests are so interesting and I'm just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:41:25.56
PJ Verfall
No, it's like I mean, that's... the The Brock Turner thing. I mean... We'll always come back to that. And it's... it's it's
00:41:37.66
PJ Verfall
You know, I think part of what really bugs me about it is also the lack of personal reflection. You know, it's, it's, it's not cause I'm a.
00:41:43.53
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yes.
00:41:45.87
PJ Verfall
I am a really big believer And that people can grow, people can change, people can. Be more than they they were. built to be. but if All you're concerned with is skating.
00:42:01.92
PJ Verfall
Well, that that that precludes any... growth or change or anything. you know, you kind of almost die as a human being if you're more concerned with looking at what you've done in life and going, well, it got away with that.
00:42:16.96
PJ Verfall
then then you are, you know, like.
00:42:17.18
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep.
00:42:19.26
PJ Verfall
you're almost killing yourself in that action. And it's... I don't know, 13 Kisses, it's... I kind of describe it as... um If Clive Barker had gotten around to directing his his own. I spit on your grave.
00:42:39.96
Wednesday Lee Friday
Sure, sure. Okay, that makes sense just given uh you know i i haven't read all of 13 cases yet but but yeah i'm i'm getting that from from what you're saying and and what i've looked at so far okay we need to actually pause for just a sec here because uh this is the part of the show where i read the names of the donors
00:43:02.35
Wednesday Lee Friday
These are the people that help keep the lights on around here. Cause you know, I'm a disabled creator who doesn't actually get disability. So my side hustles, you know, scared, sopless and this, and you know, a couple other little things I take in editing and whatnot. That is how I support myself. So throwing a few bucks at the show every month is so helpful. And you can do that on coffee. That's K O hyphen F I where we are sometimes hilarious horror. But if you search for the mentally odd cast, it should still come. Come right up.
00:43:33.43
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay, so donors right now include Brianna Simmons, that damn gym. Lowkey, Roger Humphrey, Triple L, Douglas Gee.
00:43:44.76
Wednesday Lee Friday
Supporter X, Kathy Martin. Nemu Ravenfall, That One Fool, Alison Hough, and Laura Wagonlander. Many, many thanks to them.
00:43:57.20
Wednesday Lee Friday
Alright, so we are going to talk about the therapeutic value in creating or consuming horror, and especially intensely visceral horror like we've been talking about.
00:44:10.35
PJ Verfall
Hold up. I've got a cat that's about to... Jump right on my lap.
00:44:14.65
Wednesday Lee Friday
Aww. That doesn't sound like a problem, unless it hits the mic.
00:44:20.40
PJ Verfall
that That's what i was trying to like I was trying to position myself to make sure. that she... Did not whomp right into the mic.
00:44:29.25
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, Millie is actually settled in her crate right now, which is pretty fun because she doesn't always settle for the whole interview.
00:44:37.20
PJ Verfall
now
00:44:37.46
Wednesday Lee Friday
So we'll we'll see. We'll see if she stays settled. She's got her little licky popsicle thing. I make her... um Frozen yogurt with yam baby food.
00:44:48.79
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, she loves it, man. You freeze it up, put it in the little thing.
00:44:53.39
PJ Verfall
Elsa here kind of does. whatever she wants.
00:44:57.87
Wednesday Lee Friday
That's cats for you.
00:44:59.79
PJ Verfall
She's on top of it. She's like, she's blind. So we've just generally taken that attitude of as long as she finds the litter box, and she can do whatever she wants.
00:45:07.62
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right. Right. That's wow. That's awesome. was Was she disabled when you took her in?
00:45:14.85
PJ Verfall
Uh, no, but she was... She was going blind. We just didn't know it at the time. she I mean, somebody dumped her in town. And...
00:45:23.18
Wednesday Lee Friday
Aww.
00:45:24.61
PJ Verfall
She followed my son home on Elsa Lanchester's birthday. Thus the name.
00:45:31.06
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
00:45:31.22
PJ Verfall
And... um you know, she She was outside and like, I went to go check on her and she came running out and it was raining out and she's like meeping and.
00:45:42.63
PJ Verfall
Okay, fine.
00:45:43.72
Wednesday Lee Friday
What is it? guess I have a cat now.
00:45:47.64
PJ Verfall
I wasn't planning on having another cat, but apparently my plans don't matter here. You're cute, and I'm a sucker.
00:45:56.99
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing, man. I'm... i' pretty powerless i mean we had cats the whole time we were in the the place that we're in now but with the business you know one of the things we do in the soap shop we also do resin stuff like uv resin and also two-part epoxy and so that's like real chemically there's fumes and if a Animal gets into it.
00:46:21.17
Wednesday Lee Friday
They'll die. You know, they they will not.
00:46:22.67
PJ Verfall
Yeah, it's bad juju.
00:46:23.57
Wednesday Lee Friday
survive that that sort of thing and so i couldn't have a cat because we don't have a door to our our the craft room is in the kitchen there's no door So there's no way to physically keep a cat out, you know?
00:46:37.30
Wednesday Lee Friday
So now we have a dog and we have fences all over the apartment and chicken wire and all kinds of hilarious things to keep her away from the dollies and the books and the and the various crafting chemicals.
00:46:50.03
Wednesday Lee Friday
um But she's so great. Millicent is just so freaking great. And being a dog owner is is so fun. And I wasn't sure if I would be good at it. But it turns out I'm i'm rocking it. so It's very exciting
00:47:05.18
PJ Verfall
But... To get to back to the question, yeah, actually, like, even when I was a kid... Um, and a lot of terrible stuff was happening. their Like, horror at horror was...
00:47:18.38
PJ Verfall
my escape du jour. And i I strongly suspect that some part of it. was The understanding that... Hey.
00:47:29.08
PJ Verfall
Everything is awful, but No arrows.
00:47:32.94
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
00:47:32.84
PJ Verfall
Like you can turn.
00:47:33.30
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right?
00:47:34.07
PJ Verfall
you can turn off the TV. You can put the book down. you know, you have power over that.
00:47:40.54
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:47:41.48
PJ Verfall
So it's like,
00:47:42.00
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yes.
00:47:43.20
PJ Verfall
So you you you have this big, terrible thing that's happening in life. you have especially when you're a kid. you have no power over anything but at least like you can have a even bigger.
00:47:56.79
PJ Verfall
terror there. Like, you know, something from the world of horror and you. You have power over it. You can turn the TV off. You can go outside. It ends at some point.
00:48:07.34
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. yep
00:48:08.26
PJ Verfall
um Unlike what's happening in your life, it has a beginning and an end.
00:48:15.16
Wednesday Lee Friday
Now, do you think... that in taking a lot of horror as a kid better prepared you for tragedy.
00:48:25.91
Wednesday Lee Friday
Especially tragedy that doesn't- um impact you personally, the one that comes to mind would be the Challenger disaster. I find that the kids who loved horror.
00:48:36.44
Wednesday Lee Friday
We're not as likely to. burst into tears and completely lose their minds when when we all watch that at school.
00:48:44.58
PJ Verfall
Well, yeah, i can see I can see that. I mean, I'm also a Philadelphian, and... um We have a very terrible sense of humor about. Um, Every tragedy.
00:48:56.49
PJ Verfall
The whole city does. it's It's just, again, it's a feature. Um... Like when. the most beloved newscaster.
00:49:07.95
PJ Verfall
probably in Philadelphia history, died in a... skydiving accident. The next...
00:49:13.23
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh.
00:49:14.42
PJ Verfall
The next day at school. What's Jim O 'Brien's favorite vegetable? Squash.
00:49:20.53
Wednesday Lee Friday
Ho... Shit.
00:49:24.10
PJ Verfall
And that was like... Fifth grade. So I mean, that like I said, it's it's just a feature. um But yeah, I think... I think knowing that bad things happen. and can happen.
00:49:38.08
PJ Verfall
gives you like Man. You're not as shocked Like I think if you spend your entire day. watching I don't want to degrade anything. Holly hobby. There we go.
00:49:53.39
PJ Verfall
um If you spend your whole day with that and suddenly you see a car accident, it's nothing in your life. Like... has ever prepared you for the concept of blood on the road?
00:50:00.80
Wednesday Lee Friday
It is.
00:50:03.53
Wednesday Lee Friday
Much more jarring.
00:50:06.71
PJ Verfall
Yeah, where it's like if you've watched Duel, you're like, well, that is a car accident.
00:50:11.50
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:50:12.46
PJ Verfall
I've seen those.
00:50:12.65
Wednesday Lee Friday
Well, that's interesting because... In high schools, they do show you those like crazy car crash movies in driver's ed, and that's what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to be jarring and upsetting you enough to go, oh, holy shit, I better be so careful once I'm on the road.
00:50:29.56
Wednesday Lee Friday
But yeah, if you've already seen, you know, Duel, if you've seen The Car, if you've seen, you know, The Sentinel or any of those. ah or Or even like burnt offerings. Like there are plenty of movies where a car can terrify you. I think all the ones I just named were made before 1980. So maybe there's more recent ones too. Christine.
00:50:51.03
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay. But, but yeah.
00:50:52.49
PJ Verfall
ah You didn't get that far past 1980 with Christine, though.
00:50:52.70
Wednesday Lee Friday
That. that
00:50:57.53
Wednesday Lee Friday
Alright.
00:50:57.64
PJ Verfall
There's like eight.
00:51:00.57
PJ Verfall
But...
00:51:00.63
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, well. i are old but but no you're right i think that uh That that makes a lot of sense the whole like Not not even necessarily desensitized.
00:51:11.94
Wednesday Lee Friday
But it takes away. the the shock of it not not the horror not the sadness but you're not like oh yeah that's right the world can be terrible because you already know
00:51:24.01
PJ Verfall
Yeah, it's it demystifies it a little bit. Like if, if you've never seen something like that happen. then it has almost a mystic quality of, oh my God, how could that happen?
00:51:36.17
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. Yep. And when I was a kid, there was a serial killer operating in our. i guess neighborhood it was the oakland county child killer and we lived in oakland county Um.
00:51:48.90
Wednesday Lee Friday
So from a really early age, I was like, oh, there are people in the world that. do that. Oh no! But that, you know, it kind of stays with you. always like i'm sure that that changed who i am as a person and and where my interest lays because it's such a formative age.
00:52:09.18
Wednesday Lee Friday
I was confronted with, no, you have to walk home with a friend. No, you can deliver school newspapers, but I'm going to follow you in the car. Like my mom was super paranoid about it. and All of that stayed with me. and You know, I'm finding it especially relevant because my serial killer book is coming out in a new edition next week. So by the time this airs, it will be out. Actually.
00:52:31.48
Wednesday Lee Friday
i think it's the 28th i think that's the day that it it comes out but But yeah. um That's the thing is when it's not.
00:52:41.63
Wednesday Lee Friday
So foreign to you, it is less scary. You know, it's it's still sad and worrisome and everything, but it it. becomes less scary and that's i think why horror gets more and more intense for the fans because We're just not. phased by as much.
00:53:02.59
PJ Verfall
You know, I think also... um Okay.
00:53:07.29
PJ Verfall
I... I think there are definitely some a some directors out there who just aimed to wound you. So like it just it creates little dead spots in your soul.
00:53:19.57
PJ Verfall
i'm I'm thinking of him.
00:53:19.93
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh sure.
00:53:20.90
PJ Verfall
I'm thinking of Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer here.
00:53:24.01
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, right up there with ah Cannibal Holocaust. Like there's no redeeming value to this. You're just telling me that people are awful.
00:53:30.94
PJ Verfall
Well with with henry Henry actually did like just. Whomp me because... The director knows. The Rules of Filmmaking
00:53:41.43
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:53:41.72
PJ Verfall
And he knows you know the rules of filmmaking.
00:53:44.77
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
00:53:44.80
PJ Verfall
And he knows if there's this big scene with... where he somehow made you root for a serial killer through all through this film. And the serial killer comes in and saves the day.
00:53:56.68
PJ Verfall
Well, now we know how the film has to end. No, you don't. No, no, no, you don't. Oh, God, no, you don't.
00:54:07.25
PJ Verfall
ah God, that that that film. That one is just... Even now.
00:54:15.55
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah that's one of those on my short list of films that I saw once and then never again. along with Irreversible. Happiness and Requiem for a Dream.
00:54:25.86
Wednesday Lee Friday
Those are all one and done for me.
00:54:28.29
PJ Verfall
Yeah, i've I've watched Henry again, but like... There are certain films that, yeah, i can I can look at that and go, that's a triumph of filmmaking. Want to watch it?
00:54:38.74
PJ Verfall
No, not on your goddamn life.
00:54:40.78
Wednesday Lee Friday
Nope. but Well, in some things you might want to watch like every 10 or 20 years. you know like once in a while i'll be like you know what I'm going to watch One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest today. And by the end, you're just like, oh, ohho Billy. ah Why did I watch this? but You know.
00:54:59.70
Wednesday Lee Friday
It's a masterpiece. Sometimes you gotta experience a masterpiece, even though you know your heart's about to get broken.
00:55:06.93
PJ Verfall
i Yeah, there's a lot of ah lot of a lot of films that I love. And i will I will. talk highly of at any given moment. And at the same time, it's like. Well, you want to chill out on Friday night and watch a film? Why don't we watch this? Nope.
00:55:22.47
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah.
00:55:22.24
PJ Verfall
No. No, love the film. So why don't you want to watch it? Because I'd like to sleep tonight.
00:55:28.64
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right? Right? I mean... i have There are some movies that just scare me so much, and they're weird because, like, I find Psycho 3... to be the most nightmare inducing of the psycho movies even more so than because like you know the shower scene I understand why it's technically proficient and scary and everything but Some of the stuff in Psycho 3 is just so haunting that it... Just...
00:55:56.12
Wednesday Lee Friday
burns itself into your brain.
00:55:58.86
PJ Verfall
that's That's the funny thing about anything with Hitchcock. Hitchcock has like lost his punch because... Everybody saw everything he did.
00:56:07.37
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yes, yes.
00:56:09.67
PJ Verfall
Like you can watch, like, I remember I went to see ah a ah nightmare on Elm street. in the theater. And I could tell you where the jump cut was coming from. in every scene.
00:56:20.74
PJ Verfall
which really endeared me to my ah friends. in the theater with me. But because I had watched a lot of Hitchcock, you know I'd seen The Birds, I'd seen Psycho. It's like, I i know i can i know this camera angle.
00:56:34.97
PJ Verfall
I know what is coming. you know because He's doing it perfectly. But it's like. I think for later generations, they don't understand that it's like, Yeah, but that that that angle...
00:56:47.40
PJ Verfall
He created that angle.
00:56:49.66
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. Yeah, that's it. It's so frustrating talking with younger people who think that these things were just invented for the first time, like, ah you know, scream that the series scream and they're like, oh, my God, it's so crazy that like they cast Drew Barrymore, but then she dies right away and you never see it coming. That's brilliant. Like.
00:57:10.97
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, that's a thing that- happened in 1960. That's that's not new. So...
00:57:18.97
PJ Verfall
Yeah, what's...
00:57:19.22
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, because...
00:57:20.39
PJ Verfall
What's craving? Definitely watched a lot of Hitchcock.
00:57:23.66
Wednesday Lee Friday
Well, my understanding is that it was Drew Barrymore herself who suggested that, that she not play the lead, that she play the girl who dies initially, which, you know, lucky for Neve Campbell, that's that's a...
00:57:36.38
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah. I do love... i mean even now i haven't seen the most recent scream movies but that's they're They're all pretty solid. There's all stuff to enjoy.
00:57:48.02
Wednesday Lee Friday
And I think that. the killer just the way That. He is performed and shot. It's always a little scary to me. Always.
00:57:59.84
Wednesday Lee Friday
Plus people that I didn't want to die ended up dying.
00:58:00.07
PJ Verfall
I was...
00:58:02.24
Wednesday Lee Friday
I didn't want Cotton Weary to die. Spoiler alert. um
00:58:06.83
PJ Verfall
A little late for that now, isn't it?
00:58:09.02
Wednesday Lee Friday
Whoops. A little late for Cottonwary, too. Hey-o!
00:58:12.59
PJ Verfall
Yeah.
00:58:15.60
PJ Verfall
Oh, God, we did that in unison. Anyway...
00:58:17.63
Wednesday Lee Friday
yeah ah Great minds.
00:58:22.03
PJ Verfall
ah
00:58:22.13
Wednesday Lee Friday
All right, so listen. so now you indicated a willingness to talk about a time when you felt in fear with your for your In fear. for your life now there's a reason why we ask that question and it's basically So that...
00:58:39.05
Wednesday Lee Friday
I mean, a lot it's one of those things that a lot of people feel alone in. And that people that have their shit together, that doesn't happen to them. Or that... Feeling in in legitimate fear for your life isn't very common. And I don't want to diminish anyone who's been in that situation, but I think. that there is enough commonality, that enough people have felt that.
00:59:01.10
Wednesday Lee Friday
that it is worthwhile to share those experiences so that we can all relate and and sort of... I mean, not Bond necessarily, because that sounds creepy, but... That that it's it's a very relatable thing and people don't know how relatable it is because we don't talk about it. So I appreciate your willingness to talk about it. What would you like to say?
00:59:23.48
PJ Verfall
Well, I was going to actually go with a really good explanation. of ah the PTSD. Um, My mom. had a Cheers.
00:59:36.38
PJ Verfall
knock your doors down, nervous breakdown when I was seven.
00:59:39.79
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh.
00:59:40.16
PJ Verfall
Um, Like. Paranoid schizophrenic, that's what they diagnosed it with at the time. back in the eighties, like never going to get better. you know.
00:59:50.36
PJ Verfall
that sort of thing
00:59:50.80
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh no.
00:59:52.30
PJ Verfall
And... They went. to take her to get in the hospital. And she decided on the front lawn to hold me hostage with a...
01:00:03.17
PJ Verfall
can of gas and a lighter.
01:00:05.26
Wednesday Lee Friday
Holy shit.
01:00:09.82
Wednesday Lee Friday
And I'm sorry, you were how old?
01:00:11.92
PJ Verfall
Uh,
01:00:12.73
Wednesday Lee Friday
Evan?
01:00:14.31
PJ Verfall
She, the breakdown started when I was seven. I was eight when they.
01:00:19.32
PJ Verfall
they
01:00:19.46
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wow. Oh.
01:00:20.85
PJ Verfall
Yeah.
01:00:24.70
PJ Verfall
And... Yeah. It's like, and Oh my God. And speaking of that that ah language of the abuser, my aunt. It was like, wow.
01:00:36.60
PJ Verfall
There was barely any gas in that can.
01:00:40.36
Wednesday Lee Friday
Holy
01:00:40.64
PJ Verfall
Like I knew that.
01:00:41.52
Wednesday Lee Friday
Good. Well, it kind of doesn't matter. I mean, the the threat is real. And if you're a kid, I mean, like, oh, you wouldn't have died. You just could have been disfigured hideously. Like what the fuck kind of argument is that? I'm angry on your behalf.
01:00:58.22
PJ Verfall
And like I said, so like you know seeing the... Vivek Ramaswamy thing and watching that. Horrid woman! Being trimmed. trotted out like some kind of model citizen who we should listen to her opinion it's like
01:01:14.83
PJ Verfall
like And i I was not even permanently taken away from my mother. I only had to spend the the summer with relatives.
01:01:20.87
Wednesday Lee Friday
Just this summer and then you were taken back to her?
01:01:22.13
PJ Verfall
Yeah. Yep.
01:01:24.86
Wednesday Lee Friday
Was she... Well?
01:01:27.74
PJ Verfall
Uh... better than she was. I mean, she had and she she kept having nervous breakdowns. like You know, and that. That... created situations where, like when I say I was raised as a free range kid, I'm not kidding.
01:01:43.53
PJ Verfall
Um, And that creates situations that are rife for abuse. from other people. outside of the home. And.
01:01:51.57
Wednesday Lee Friday
mm-hmm
01:01:52.71
PJ Verfall
You know.
01:01:52.49
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep.
01:01:53.64
PJ Verfall
And. And that's why Mr. Prozac is my friend.
01:01:59.71
Wednesday Lee Friday
Sure, that that is relatable. Highly, highly relatable. Cause I mean, you know, I was a weird fat kid named Wednesday who was getting their ass kicked at home every day, totally parentified, taking care of younger siblings and undiagnosed autism and ADHD. so you go to school and it's like how come the bullies know who has autism why did they know that there's something wrong with me and yet the teachers and counselors and You know, they don't.
01:02:27.62
Wednesday Lee Friday
seem to get it. It's very frustrating.
01:02:28.91
PJ Verfall
God. that Back in the 70s and 80s... you know They just... didn't want to know that the home life was complicated. I mean...
01:02:40.12
PJ Verfall
To go back to the the... acting story. Like, she was taken away from her mom in 1978. for good and for always. I know for a fact. How difficult. It was to take a kid away.
01:02:52.64
PJ Verfall
from the parent in 1978. like i said i just spent the summer with my aunt next thing i know i'm back with my mom you know and my mom Try to light me on fire.
01:02:55.41
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep.
01:03:03.74
PJ Verfall
you know, So.
01:03:04.68
Wednesday Lee Friday
Well, yeah, there was a thinking that no matter what a kid was better off with their mom And. I'm here to tell you, some women shouldn't be parents and didn't realize that until after they were knocked up a few times.
01:03:17.04
PJ Verfall
Yeah, it's like I mean, like I would always have like um counselors or or people going, Gee, your test scores are through the roof. Why don't you do better in school? Yeah, well, because my mom's talking to nobody at... Up until 2 a .m. in the morning, I don't get a lot of sleep.
01:03:32.80
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah. And then it's kind of sink or swim after that. They just leave kids to raw dog that. And, uh... yeah and then they're all like oh why are why why are your uh why is your shit not together why is your life messed up why are you making all these bad choices that was that was one of the the refrains that i had a lot why why do you choose these men that are mean to you in bed it's like well because
01:03:55.84
Wednesday Lee Friday
abuse is the most comfortable thing, and I was told outright that I didn't deserve a good guy and wouldn't find one until I was, you know, skinny.
01:04:05.81
PJ Verfall
Yeah, my aunt went went with... Um... It's your fault she's like this.
01:04:11.52
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh my god. Gross! what a gross thing to i mean even if that were somehow true that's a gross thing to say to a child
01:04:21.02
PJ Verfall
Yeah, so like... i I mean, I joke about it because what what else can you do at this point? you know It's like so like three different people. complemented three different books of mine recently, and my low self-esteem didn't know what to do with the information.
01:04:35.53
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. Also relatable. Also relatable. Do you ever just say like, oh, thank you. That's so kind. Like they're they're being nice, doing you a solid by saying your book is good and not that it's not possible, that it's just genuinely good and they enjoyed it.
01:04:52.34
PJ Verfall
I just always like... I always give the... Oh, thank you so much. And I really do mean it. But the nanosecond. I am not looking at that message anymore.
01:05:05.70
PJ Verfall
Oh my God, my brain like... And like one of the people that complimented one of my books is like somebody I respect in this business a ton. And I just...
01:05:16.49
PJ Verfall
I like was like, Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. Ah! Ah!
01:05:21.43
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wow. you want You want to name names? I'd love to know who.
01:05:26.39
PJ Verfall
ah Lisa Lee Tone.
01:05:27.99
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, neat.
01:05:29.72
PJ Verfall
she She loved 13 Kisses. and you know, a compliment from her like to me means a lot. So it. But like, you know, I was i thank thanked her very much. And then I...
01:05:42.49
PJ Verfall
Freaked out about it later.
01:05:44.56
Wednesday Lee Friday
Sure, absolutely. That's yeah I bet. So we should really talk about 13 Kisses. i as i said did not get to finish it but what we wanted we want to cover first of all it's out now um what formats is it in
01:06:01.32
PJ Verfall
Pretty much so everything. it's um I mean, you can get Barnes & Noble. Matter of fact. Actually... this is This is a dirty little trick. If you really like a book.
01:06:12.28
PJ Verfall
If you go into Barnes & Noble and order it from them in the store, If it happens enough times, a lot of times they put it on the shelves.
01:06:19.83
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. Yep, that is true. So yeah, people should totally do that. So print and digital, right? And then is there an audio book?
01:06:25.95
PJ Verfall
Yep. No. Um...
01:06:29.66
Wednesday Lee Friday
Will there be?
01:06:31.85
PJ Verfall
I... Um, Uncomfortably dark right now is not... Because of the length of time, the rights stay with Amazon. If you put out an audio book. They're not comfortable with holding your book that long.
01:06:48.12
PJ Verfall
So it would be on me to do it. And I just... I just don't know. I don't like i don't know if it's if it's my top priority.
01:06:57.49
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, sure. It's a big undertaking. I was really lucky. My new publisher decided to to do the audiobook. for my my debut because all my long form stuff is is back out now or coming back out. um but yeah like audiobooks are one of those things that like they're they're expensive to buy they're really hard to produce you know they take a long time
01:07:20.95
Wednesday Lee Friday
And then once people get audiobooks, there are like gatekeepy jags that tell people they're not really reading because it's an audiobook.
01:07:30.27
PJ Verfall
ah that is That is completely... And utterly bogus. I love, I know that's another thing. It's like, despite the fact that I haven't put out audio books. Though, ah an anthology I'm in...
01:07:42.90
PJ Verfall
is on audio. Um, the Splatterpunk Anthology from Hellbound. That has an audio book on it.
01:07:52.14
Wednesday Lee Friday
Nice.
01:07:52.36
PJ Verfall
Um... But yeah, no, I... I have a car. i I like to listen to somebody talk When I'm in the car, just because it...
01:08:02.94
PJ Verfall
Keeps me crisp and like. In the moment. And I pay better attention to my driving that way. You know, it's just.
01:08:09.72
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, sure. That makes sense. Yep.
01:08:11.47
PJ Verfall
You know, it's, it's just, it's a, it's a habit I developed among really long drives. you know like around hour three when you're starting to get a little mentally punchy. You kind of need something to keep you... here.
01:08:24.82
Wednesday Lee Friday
So you, uh... Okay, here's here's here's my question. If you wanted to give us a recording of yourself reading a chapter, we can add it to the end of the episode.
01:08:37.86
Wednesday Lee Friday
What do you think about that?
01:08:39.75
PJ Verfall
Um...
01:08:40.24
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah. We wouldn't record that now. You could record it on your own and then just give it to me sometime you know in the next week.
01:08:47.47
PJ Verfall
I'm not. huge on readings. at least for myself, just because I get really... Like my voice gets really tense and I kill like any. adding Anything to it.
01:08:59.79
Wednesday Lee Friday
Probably because you don't do it very much.
01:09:02.87
PJ Verfall
When I do readings... Oh my God. I hate doing reading, so... much.
01:09:11.24
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh no, really?
01:09:13.04
PJ Verfall
Yeah, I...
01:09:12.95
Wednesday Lee Friday
I'm shocked. I'm sure you have an awesome voice for it, man.
01:09:14.53
PJ Verfall
Pam?
01:09:16.37
Wednesday Lee Friday
Seriously.
01:09:18.04
PJ Verfall
panels Panels, I love doing a panel. Um, I'm... i feel Bleh. Like, I... I have. More opportunity to get mentally.
01:09:29.36
PJ Verfall
Geeked out. doing a reading where a panel it's more reactive
01:09:36.13
PJ Verfall
Like.
01:09:36.38
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
01:09:36.40
PJ Verfall
it I mean, it's like Like when i I used to play in bands. Like if you're playing live, you're reacting to the crowd in real time.
01:09:46.36
Wednesday Lee Friday
Uh huh.
01:09:47.57
PJ Verfall
When you're in the studio. you can outthink yourself. And you can get like. the The best way to ever I found to record was just to record live off the board and just treat it like a live performance.
01:10:01.83
PJ Verfall
Because if if you go over, like for me. And everybody's different, you know. For me, if you have a chance to go over something over and over again in your head, you you lose whatever makes it good.
01:10:15.99
Wednesday Lee Friday
I see. Yeah, you know, that's interesting because um we had somebody do a reading for the show. And they mentioned practicing. practicing the reading. And that concept, I was just like, wait, really? People people do that? um Because it it had not occurred to me.
01:10:33.10
Wednesday Lee Friday
that people would practice something that's that's long form like that like maybe a poem but not prose and that hadn't even occurred to me even though my first podcast was audiobooks i was reading my debut but like my debut's in mary sue so it got like difficult for me to read so I didn't want it. do it. Um.
01:10:56.60
Wednesday Lee Friday
But yeah. ah Sorry, I just lost my train of thought. We're probably going to cut this and since you're not going to give us a reading.
01:11:05.55
PJ Verfall
thanks Thanks for understanding on that. I do appreciate that.
01:11:07.67
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh, of course, of course. Yeah, that's the thing, is that, like, the nature of this show... means that I want to find everybody's boundaries so I make sure that I'm respecting them. like that's you know that that's why we do the questionnaire so i'm not putting people on the spot it's not a gotcha show
01:11:19.98
PJ Verfall
Yeah, if you're...
01:11:26.75
PJ Verfall
Yeah, if you've ever seen um me at a Khan do a reading. I don't... I think if you like pushed me with all your might. Like you wouldn't even be able to get my skin to move. It's that tense.
01:11:39.82
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh wow.
01:11:42.91
PJ Verfall
Yeah, I mean this
01:11:42.98
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, that's...
01:11:44.45
PJ Verfall
It is.
01:11:44.31
Wednesday Lee Friday
It's a common phobia. I'm just always surprised when a writer has it. I don't know why. Because writers can be, you know, super reclusive.
01:11:53.72
PJ Verfall
Oh, and that's That is the shame of being a writer. We all wanted a job where we could hide in our room and just create. And it turns out we actually have to be. amiable and talk to people and act.
01:12:07.55
PJ Verfall
God. That didn't turn out it.
01:12:09.44
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah. Yeah.
01:12:10.87
PJ Verfall
That didn't turn out at all like I thought it would.
01:12:14.02
Wednesday Lee Friday
Well, I think most writers' fondest wish is that they could hire a marketing team so they didn't have to talk to other people in order to sell books.
01:12:22.68
PJ Verfall
I think every...
01:12:22.86
Wednesday Lee Friday
And just be.
01:12:24.31
PJ Verfall
I think every writer has said that at least once to their significant other. I'd like to get big enough so I could hire people to do this crap.
01:12:31.66
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Matter of fact, put my ah press packet together. I hate that. press i have a degree in journalism i still hate putting a press packet together Whoops.
01:12:42.96
PJ Verfall
Oh, my God. ah The... the Write the synopsis for the back cover. Um...
01:12:48.13
Wednesday Lee Friday
ah No! No, I'm not gonna. You read it.
01:12:52.07
PJ Verfall
you
01:12:52.18
Wednesday Lee Friday
You write the back cover.
01:12:54.44
PJ Verfall
Well, you have to read it to edit it. So why don't you just write it? So I don't have anything more to do with it, please. Thank you.
01:13:00.34
Wednesday Lee Friday
or Or you could say the most writerly thing ever. What's your book about? Well, why don't you read it and tell me what you think it's about? I actually don't like that one because you should know what your book is about, even if you can't sum it up in a single salesworthy paragraph.
01:13:18.91
PJ Verfall
that's I think that's actually one of the nicest things about writing Splatterpunk. It's like, I know what the book... like there's i I know there's two things that it's about.
01:13:29.91
PJ Verfall
you know, and I know what the other thing It's about ism And it's, Kind of funny. I can't. I have a hard time writing until I find out what else I'm trying to say.
01:13:41.34
Wednesday Lee Friday
Sure, yes. Yeah, I totally went through that with Kiss Me Like You Love Me. I didn't know how to end it because I didn't know what the theme was supposed to be. I knew the story. I knew what I was telling and like who everybody was, but I couldn't decide what was going to happen to like three central characters because what happened to them determined what. kind of book it was like what the mood and the theme were as opposed to like just what was happening
01:14:10.34
Wednesday Lee Friday
And it can really leave you stuck.
01:14:10.68
PJ Verfall
Yeah.
01:14:13.61
PJ Verfall
No, it's like basically like I kind of drift with like a basic idea until I see where I'm going.
01:14:19.53
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. yep
01:14:20.33
PJ Verfall
And then it like, it dawns on me and it's like. You know, and in half the time... Oh. I didn't expect that Like...
01:14:28.61
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
01:14:28.64
PJ Verfall
a Book I'm revising right now, Micro. It just started because I wanted to demystify the whole serial killer thing.
01:14:36.49
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
01:14:36.90
PJ Verfall
Um, Serial killers in fiction are either... This hyper genius.
01:14:44.21
PJ Verfall
or they're this really just horrible, disgusting thing. you know, And if you can mutate them, even better. And.
01:14:53.77
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh wow.
01:14:55.64
PJ Verfall
you know, what most serial killers are really like. is they have a job.
01:15:01.92
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
01:15:02.23
PJ Verfall
They go to church. They have a wife. They just have some weird sexual hang-up in their past. that they want to share around.
01:15:12.56
PJ Verfall
You know, and that's that's the majority of them. you know, and so I wanted to make a book. where...
01:15:22.54
PJ Verfall
The serial care killer isn't cool and he's not gross either. like He's just... a neighbor.
01:15:30.92
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay. All right.
01:15:32.52
PJ Verfall
Um,
01:15:33.64
Wednesday Lee Friday
And wait, is this your book that's coming out in December?
01:15:36.95
PJ Verfall
Now that is Sinister Lookalike. That is...
01:15:39.85
Wednesday Lee Friday
No.
01:15:41.50
PJ Verfall
That is pretty much so dealing with alcoholism.
01:15:44.29
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh wow.
01:15:46.01
PJ Verfall
Yeah, that's, I mean, anybody... I think anybody who's even drank at all. has had the moment they wake up the next day. Going I did what?
01:15:56.05
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right.
01:15:57.86
PJ Verfall
You know, where it's you feel like you've become a monster overnight. And now you're trying to like run through your apologies and. you know, but there's like more to it than that. It's like also like anybody who's in the throes of addiction.
01:16:15.07
PJ Verfall
they're to some degree committing suicide. And they know it You know, they they hate where they are too.
01:16:23.57
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
01:16:25.34
PJ Verfall
You know, it's it's not just you hating it for them or hating who they are when they do this. They they don't like it either.
01:16:31.71
Wednesday Lee Friday
Absolutely.
01:16:33.19
PJ Verfall
And... So basically the alternating chapters. Um... Like... The... Blood and guts happen when he blacks out.
01:16:46.50
PJ Verfall
And then the rest of the time, he's just trying to get through life and get through his own trauma. and then it just kind of comes to a... ahead as we go.
01:16:56.99
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wow. Oh I'm stoked. I'm stoked. um So how do people find you if they want to buy your books? Is it better to look on Amazon or do you have a website? What's the deal?
01:17:08.17
PJ Verfall
Well, I do have a website. um I just started kind of using it. Facebook is actually preference. Um, Because I check that for other stuff. you know, it's like I go.
01:17:18.52
Wednesday Lee Friday
Do you um Do you have a link tree?
01:17:22.17
PJ Verfall
Yeah.
01:17:23.06
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
01:17:23.23
PJ Verfall
All right. I'm pretty sure.
01:17:24.68
Wednesday Lee Friday
So that's probably what we'll share.
01:17:25.10
PJ Verfall
i
01:17:25.89
Wednesday Lee Friday
We'll share the link tree because that'll have all your relevant links on it, right?
01:17:29.48
PJ Verfall
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I sent that over.
01:17:31.74
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay. Yeah, I don't have it in front of me because I'm just, you know.
01:17:32.33
PJ Verfall
With the questionnaire, yeah.
01:17:35.47
Wednesday Lee Friday
I'm singularly focused on you right now. and and And interrupting you to crack jokes when you're trying to talk about something serious. Because that's what I do here. um Okay. So.
01:17:49.22
Wednesday Lee Friday
All right, so... What I want to ask, though... is like... What advice would you give someone? who wants to work through their own mental health. by writing about it.
01:18:06.10
PJ Verfall
I think one of the most important things is to realize then that you're writing for you. Um. You can't wedge your... trauma.
01:18:17.51
PJ Verfall
into a trend. I mean you could try but it doesn't work. You have to... Like... Yeah. At its basis, yeah the the book has to start...
01:18:29.07
PJ Verfall
with something you really want to do, not something you really think readers want to read.
01:18:34.02
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. Yep. Agree. Hard agree.
01:18:38.97
PJ Verfall
Because you i mean you can't put yourself into it if you're... doing a copy.
01:18:46.15
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right. And I think If... You're a new writer? and you're still looking for your voice? the worst thing you can do is Base it on someone else's voice.
01:18:57.03
Wednesday Lee Friday
Or base it on what you think is going to sell, like trying to write to a market instead of writing the thing that you want to say.
01:18:57.33
PJ Verfall
yeah That's what...
01:19:04.80
PJ Verfall
This is why I don't i actually don't recommend... Books on rating by authors except for one. Um,
01:19:11.42
Wednesday Lee Friday
On writing.
01:19:14.08
PJ Verfall
Actually, it's Jeff Strands. because...
01:19:16.21
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh wow, really?
01:19:17.77
PJ Verfall
Yeah, because every other book is basically teaching you how to learn to write like the person writing the book. And there's not a there's not enough about finding your own voice. Jeff's book is about...
01:19:29.48
PJ Verfall
All the things you can expect if you actually want to do this for money.
01:19:35.27
PJ Verfall
like what it's like to get an agent. How useful is an agent? Um, What kind of writing advice is just... stupid and what kind of writing advice maybe you should look at. how to get good advice from people. like It's all of that stuff. It's all the stuff that nobody teaches you.
01:19:56.52
PJ Verfall
you know, that you, like, we all have to go through learning on our own as, as we become professionals at this gig. You know, and that's his book is just, it's nothing but.
01:20:08.31
PJ Verfall
it's There's nothing about how you should write. It's all about what happens when you've decided. to take the plunge and become a writer.
01:20:18.22
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay. And what's the title of that?
01:20:21.53
PJ Verfall
ah Hold up. I'd have to look that up, but... Hi, kitten. What are you doing with the keyboard, daddy?
01:20:32.37
PJ Verfall
That is exactly what she's doing right now. You should be petting me. Why are you not petting me? You could be petting me.
01:20:42.38
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, that's cats for you.
01:20:45.38
PJ Verfall
Yeah. And well, now, now I'm petting her and she doesn't care about the keyboard anymore. She's like that. God. rates a lot.
01:20:57.24
PJ Verfall
Sorry, I'm looking at Jeff's... um
01:20:59.62
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah that might take a minute. me
01:21:02.45
PJ Verfall
it had It hadn't come out that way.
01:21:03.23
Wednesday Lee Friday
He's prolific, that one.
01:21:05.38
PJ Verfall
Yes, he is. It didn't come out that long ago, but... He's also re-released a lot of stuff. So that's helpful. That's really, really, thanks, Jeff. helpful.
01:21:16.43
PJ Verfall
um But yeah, no. I think it's on writing or something like it.
01:21:23.96
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wait, do you mean the book that was put out by the Horror Writers Association? It has like a red cover.
01:21:27.87
PJ Verfall
No. No.
01:21:29.20
Wednesday Lee Friday
that more I think Mort Castle edited it.
01:21:31.92
PJ Verfall
No, he he wrote a book on his own. Matter of fact. um he had me he He actually sent me the ARC on it. And I was kind of like, oh God, this is gonna...
01:21:43.02
PJ Verfall
Um, You know, I wasn't that enthusiastic because, oh, great, a book and on writing. Um, And then I read it and I'm like, now I like. I am always...
01:21:55.83
PJ Verfall
I always recommend like Jeff's book on writing just because. The Writing Life Reflections and Recollections That's it.
01:22:02.79
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
01:22:04.07
PJ Verfall
And I always recommend that book. Just because... Yeah, there's all kinds of stuff that nobody... Like we all think that we we went through on our own through in this business.
01:22:17.83
PJ Verfall
And he's like,
01:22:18.49
Wednesday Lee Friday
Okay.
01:22:19.34
PJ Verfall
and he goes through and it's like I think just about any any experienced writer is going to find their own life experience in this book. And anybody who wants to get into writing.
01:22:30.53
PJ Verfall
should probably read this book.
01:22:36.28
PJ Verfall
Jafdal.
01:22:36.14
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wow.
01:22:37.32
PJ Verfall
Yeah, Jeff doesn't... teach you how to write. He treat teaches you how to survive the fact that you're a writer.
01:22:43.68
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, two two entirely separate skills, I would say. At least in my experience.
01:22:47.74
PJ Verfall
Oh yeah. the Oh, there is so much I didn't know.
01:22:52.15
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wow, I'm gonna have to pick that up.
01:22:54.95
PJ Verfall
I...
01:22:55.10
Wednesday Lee Friday
Thanks for making me spend more money on books.
01:22:55.10
PJ Verfall
i
01:23:00.13
PJ Verfall
think that Well, she knocked over the microphone.
01:23:02.25
Wednesday Lee Friday
Uh-oh.
01:23:02.62
PJ Verfall
Good for her.
01:23:05.41
Wednesday Lee Friday
I guess so.
01:23:07.58
PJ Verfall
Well, actually for a cat, that is a success.
01:23:10.39
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wow.
01:23:11.28
PJ Verfall
Something got knocked over. Yay.
01:23:13.19
Wednesday Lee Friday
At least it didn't shatter, microphones don't shatter. Unless they're very... very, very cold. um Okay. So we're actually nearing the end of the question. So um this is where I ask if there was anything that you wanted to talk about that we did not get to.
01:23:33.82
PJ Verfall
Well, actually... um i have i have to I have to ask, just doing a show like this, have you ever had an interview? spin out on you.
01:23:44.65
Wednesday Lee Friday
Um... No, I don't I well ah not Not during the interview. I've had people after the interview. um Like some problematic things happened. um Someone I had on the show.
01:24:01.19
Wednesday Lee Friday
pretended to be a lawyer. and and emailed me at... like on a Sunday morning. It was like 6 a .m. on a Sunday morning. telling me that they were demanding that the episode be taken down.
01:24:15.49
Wednesday Lee Friday
And telling me that like Ronnie James Dio's widow was, was going to come after me. um It was, it was. surreal it was insane and then they went online and and told people that i was terrorizing them And uh...
01:24:30.48
Wednesday Lee Friday
And so yeah, that didn't happen during the interview. but The fact that that would happen. Ever? was was
01:24:39.09
PJ Verfall
That is... and Yeah.
01:24:41.54
Wednesday Lee Friday
it was It was quite unexpected, and the thing is that I... I think that if ah if a guest ever came to me and said, you know what, I'm sorry, but I would really like that interview to be taken down.
01:24:53.06
Wednesday Lee Friday
I would be reticent to do it, but I would consider it certainly because I want to be respectful. But... At the same time... my My urge would be...
01:25:05.49
Wednesday Lee Friday
I mean, we we barely edit these interviews. We at edit for things like you know my my weed pipe or the the doorbell. you know we don't We don't really edit for content unless something really untoward happens because I think authenticity is important because of what we're doing and how we're doing it.
01:25:24.09
Wednesday Lee Friday
so taking down and and in an interview after it's posted would feel like a dirty delete to me. So. A guest would have to. I think, convinced me why it it needed to come down.
01:25:36.42
Wednesday Lee Friday
It would be a conversation. And the fact that someone had the temerity to pretend to be an attorney and make demands of me. um
01:25:46.60
PJ Verfall
next that That's so childish, actually.
01:25:47.64
Wednesday Lee Friday
made me... yeah i mean i really i really dug my feet in on on that one because you know i'm a i'm a grown-up who was bullied as a kid and sometimes as an adult So my attitude was very much like, no.
01:26:01.72
Wednesday Lee Friday
Come at me. Try it! Try something. Do it. You know, like I was so just like petty and defensive about it. And the interview is still up. I'm not gonna say who it is. I think a lot of people know who it is.
01:26:14.93
Wednesday Lee Friday
Because when they called me, I mean, they called me out publicly on Facebook. And it was one of those like weird. like dog piles where. anybody who defended me he would block them and then later he added me back you know he's he and i are well we're not facebook friends but he did add me back i think he follows me now and it's it's just insane it's surreal because they're they badmouth me to people that impacted my standing and in some communities.
01:26:44.88
Wednesday Lee Friday
But at the same time, a lot of people contacted me and were like, oh, it's your turn to be on the in the crosshairs of that frigging nut. So yeah, I mean, the whole situation was insane.
01:26:57.94
PJ Verfall
Yeah, no, I, like... I actually kind of... have Reached an understanding with my own personal trauma of... understanding how little it actually has to do with me.
01:27:12.49
PJ Verfall
if that makes sense. Um, you know, what. What somebody did to... to me in 1979 is not really a reflection on me.
01:27:25.75
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right. Right.
01:27:27.87
PJ Verfall
You know, so it's just it's something I feel like i'm I'm relatively comfortable talking about because it's like it happened. It is what it is.
01:27:35.85
Wednesday Lee Friday
Mm hmm.
01:27:36.24
PJ Verfall
you know. we're Eh. I think so much stuff happened to so many different kids. Because people didn't want to talk about things.
01:27:47.62
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep.
01:27:48.59
PJ Verfall
So much.
01:27:48.70
Wednesday Lee Friday
Well, domestic... violence is yeah that that's huge and that's it's made such a difference that we started talking about it toward children and and adults you know because a lot of people were getting their asses kicked at home by people that they should have been able to trust
01:28:04.30
PJ Verfall
Yeah, and it's just like, I think... that That isn't what nice people talk about. is how we ended up with so many people needing therapy if they're lucky.
01:28:17.15
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yes. Yes. That it's it's considered. more I mean, that's what that's part of what niceness is. Being nice means only bringing up pleasant conversations. You know, it's the same people thing that some people say about politics. Oh, I don't talk about politics because it's unpleasant.
01:28:36.13
Wednesday Lee Friday
Like, no, you don't talk about politics because you don't want to admit you voted for a fascist. um
01:28:42.25
PJ Verfall
That's yeah. Well, both sides are corrupt and I'm just going to sit this one out. Yeah. Now, thank you for telling me who you voted for last time.
01:28:49.25
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right? Like. Good idea! I'm sure Kamala would have had roaming gangs of masked thugs who impregnate children just- Working for the government. um No, no, of course not. So.
01:29:02.64
Wednesday Lee Friday
So, yeah. um you know what i think i think that's it i think we're time it's time for the mad lib
01:29:09.87
PJ Verfall
Mad Lib Ho!
01:29:11.82
Wednesday Lee Friday
Alright. So... di to to We're going to start with plural nouns. I'm going to need one, two, three.
01:29:22.64
Wednesday Lee Friday
Four looks like four plural nouns.
01:29:26.38
PJ Verfall
Uh... cars
01:29:31.21
PJ Verfall
I can't stop myself on this one, hippies. Um... Hmm. Bears.
01:29:42.16
Wednesday Lee Friday
All right, one more.
01:29:44.98
PJ Verfall
Okay. Cars, hippies, bears. that Oh yeah. Three, four. Right, right, right. right right Cameras.
01:29:53.27
Wednesday Lee Friday
Alright, I need an adjective.
01:29:58.35
PJ Verfall
o Quickly.
01:30:02.55
Wednesday Lee Friday
right Well, this one is person in room male. So that's you and I need a singular noun
01:30:12.20
PJ Verfall
Hmm.
01:30:15.60
PJ Verfall
oh Why is singular suddenly like... Rhett.
01:30:23.05
Wednesday Lee Friday
Alright. Alright, and a color.
01:30:27.81
PJ Verfall
Purple.
01:30:29.67
Wednesday Lee Friday
ah alright And there's another person in room male here, but there isn't another person in room, so... Name a famous man.
01:30:43.43
PJ Verfall
Harrison Ford
01:30:47.87
Wednesday Lee Friday
All right, nice. And then we need an article of clothing.
01:30:54.57
PJ Verfall
Leg garter.
01:30:58.17
Wednesday Lee Friday
Great. And a verb past tense.
01:31:07.95
PJ Verfall
fled.
01:31:10.13
Wednesday Lee Friday
I need a number.
01:31:14.11
PJ Verfall
12.
01:31:15.99
Wednesday Lee Friday
A part of the body.
01:31:18.99
PJ Verfall
Arm.
01:31:22.87
Wednesday Lee Friday
A place.
01:31:25.50
PJ Verfall
Cleveland.
01:31:29.63
Wednesday Lee Friday
A. okay person in room female so i guess that's uh we need a female celebrity
01:31:38.48
PJ Verfall
Well, since actually Elsa was in the room... We'll go with Elsa Lanchester.
01:31:44.44
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep, whoa Willard Stiles' mom. People hate when you call her that. um All right. Oh, we need another place.
01:31:56.97
PJ Verfall
Hmm.
01:32:00.39
PJ Verfall
Kalamazoo.
01:32:05.12
Wednesday Lee Friday
All righty. And then finally, we need another male celebrity. Good Lord, Mad Libs thinks we're having quite a party in here.
01:32:12.50
PJ Verfall
Yeah.
01:32:12.62
Wednesday Lee Friday
um Male celebrity.
01:32:16.88
PJ Verfall
Christopher Lee
01:32:18.88
Wednesday Lee Friday
Nice. Okay. Okay. So this is called Dare to be newsworthy. Some people will do anything to get their 15 minutes of cars.
01:32:33.96
Wednesday Lee Friday
Think you've seen it all? Check out the quick things these people did to make headlines. PJ, a star rat ball player at his school, ran a marathon. wearing 5-inch stiletto hippies and a skin-tight floral leg garter.
01:32:55.62
Wednesday Lee Friday
Wetnes painted herself. bright purple and fled in a public fountain while people blasted her with a squirt gun filled with bears.
01:33:07.40
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah. Harrison Ford tied 12 helium-filled cameras around his arm. and floated from Cleveland to Kalamazoo.
01:33:19.31
Wednesday Lee Friday
Elsa Lanchester walked up to every fast food drive-thru window in town and asked if she could have Christopher Lee to go. That is hilarious.
01:33:33.20
PJ Verfall
You know the image of... Harrison Ford Grumpily. floating or... Through the air.
01:33:38.46
Wednesday Lee Friday
yeah Big scowl on his face. And he's a pilot.
01:33:42.65
PJ Verfall
And.
01:33:42.67
Wednesday Lee Friday
So he'd be really mad that he had to do that. That he didn't have a plane.
01:33:47.89
PJ Verfall
What the hell is this about, goddammit?
01:33:50.32
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right? He's become so curmudgeonly. I guess maybe become isn't the right root word because he was like a young curmudgeon in American graffiti. Maybe nothing's changed.
01:34:00.90
PJ Verfall
ah But... He has a great sense of humor about stuff.
01:34:02.34
Wednesday Lee Friday
oh
01:34:04.17
PJ Verfall
Like if you just catch him, right. And i kind of I kind of appreciate that because like there are so many other.
01:34:12.91
PJ Verfall
of that era. um actors who just... have become humorless. So when I see like, you know, Mark Hamill or like Harrison Ford. crack a joke about themselves.
01:34:25.84
PJ Verfall
I just... It gives me hope. It's like, you know, the idea of like. They still have some youth left into them. They don't take themselves so seriously. And then you watch.
01:34:35.30
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep. Yep.
01:34:36.72
PJ Verfall
And then you watch Jon Voight, who takes himself incredibly seriously. And it's like, I don't...
01:34:42.21
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yep.
01:34:43.55
PJ Verfall
I don't want to be that when I'm 78. I don't want to be sitting there going.
01:34:47.88
Wednesday Lee Friday
No.
01:34:49.89
PJ Verfall
acting Acting like... I don't want to ever become that kind of adult.
01:34:55.61
Wednesday Lee Friday
Right.
01:34:56.86
PJ Verfall
I always want to be the kind of adult that when.
01:34:57.53
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, if you can't get whimsical and humorous and... you don't have enough self-examination skill to like laugh at yourself what what do you even do it You know, what are you, Elon Musk? Are you a robot? What's happening?
01:35:11.90
PJ Verfall
And if somebody... if Anybody had some stuff to laugh about about themselves? God knows he does.
01:35:17.85
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah. um Okay, so. I think that's it. We are wrapped up. And I have to say. i'm I'm so glad that you came on the show because we see each other online a lot, but we've never really talked. And this was a hell of a good conversation. I'm so glad that we had it.
01:35:37.10
PJ Verfall
Cool. Actually, this this went much better than... Of course, anything anything involving the... The publicity end of this- this business I have a... Good long panic attack working up to it.
01:35:51.95
PJ Verfall
Actually...
01:35:52.10
Wednesday Lee Friday
Aww.
01:35:51.95
PJ Verfall
it Oh, actually, actually, no, thank you to Prozac. I do no longer have a panic attack about it. But I do get pretty stressed.
01:36:01.37
Wednesday Lee Friday
Yeah, I mean I get that like what I have outside events, but if I feel like I'm in my element then You know, I don't. but I think.
01:36:09.57
PJ Verfall
I'm getting...
01:36:10.99
Wednesday Lee Friday
my My whole...
01:36:11.00
PJ Verfall
I'm getting better about signings.
01:36:13.47
Wednesday Lee Friday
Good. That's great. Well, then that's the thing is that assigning you can kind of barricade yourself behind a table. They they tell you to to like get out and talk pete to people like you're the ambassador of the bookstore or whatever. But if you if you really want to, you can just. be behind a table.
01:36:30.74
PJ Verfall
And actually I've gotten like really good at like. this is This is an... This is a... um Skill I learned telemarketing. how to go through your books.
01:36:41.66
PJ Verfall
In a perfectly timed. Spiel. that gives the people an understanding of what the books are about, makes them sound appealing, but doesn't take too long.
01:36:51.89
Wednesday Lee Friday
Oh right, is that called an elevator pitch?
01:36:56.71
PJ Verfall
Yeah, but I think like what what you do with like assigning, you got to be a little. snappier about it. Cause like, especially if it's like a big con signing. Because you've got their attention for nanoseconds.
01:37:09.81
PJ Verfall
So you better better get it. like Really quickly.
01:37:14.21
Wednesday Lee Friday
That makes sense. That makes sense. Wow. Okay. So... So yeah, I think that's... i keep saying we're gonna wrap it up and then we don't that's how you know we're from the midwest Like.
01:37:27.01
Wednesday Lee Friday
Let me just... Well, thanks for stopping by. Stand up. wipe my hands like this open the door and then think of something else we should talk about no um
01:37:37.39
PJ Verfall
and it is
01:37:37.64
Wednesday Lee Friday
All right. so I want to thank you one last time and then thank everybody for listening. Y 'all are great and do find us on Ko-fi. We will see everybody next week.
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