Mentally Oddcast Transcript: Alex S Johnson
Transcript of Alex S Johnson.
The audio episode can be found here.
Wednesday
You are listening to The Mentally Oddcast, where we talk with creatives about neurodivergence, trauma, addiction, and all the other things that impact and inform our art. Our goal is to show everyone that no matter what you're going through, you are not alone and you can make art about it.
Wednesday
Hi friends, you are listening to the Mentally Oddcast. My name is Wednesday Lee Friday. And with us this week, we have Alex S. Johnson, who is the author of numerous books of science fiction, fantasy, bizarro, and horror. Wow, lots and lots of books here. um He is actually the creator of the anthology's Floppy Shoe Apocalypse, which is clown horror. We'll talk more about that later. ah Dreams of Fire and Steel, and a bunch of other ones that we're definitely going to get into in this interview. um Alex was a music journalist for 25 years. He's taught college compositions. Right now, he is semi-retired and living in Sacramento, where he runs a nocturnicorn press. um So tons and tons of stuff this guy does. Alex, thank you so much for being here.
Alex
Thank you for having me.
Wednesday
Oh, it is our pleasure. Pleasure to have you. Now, sometimes these interviews get pretty deep. And before we get into something deep and heavy, I like to start with something on the light side. So why don't you tell us about your first experience seeing a horror movie?
Alex
Oh, that's, um yeah. Well, actually, because i ah my my mom was it' kind of like against TV when I was growing up. And I only, you know, finally after begging for years, and I finally got a TV set um when I was about 13. But I would go over to my friend's house and watch TV um at their place. And I remember like, it was absolutely the very first time I saw a horror movie. I mean, I like, I would always go to the library and look up like books on horror films, you know, the classic, you know, Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, Vincent Price, all that stuff, right? right Hitchcock. And, but I would savor these still images, but I'd never actually seen a horror film and before. in my life. I mean, i we saw like Disney movies with Jodie Foster and stuff, right? Freaky Friday. Right.
Wednesday
So maybe like, ah okay, so make maybe like Escape to Witch Mountain? Maybe?
Alex
Yes. Yes. Escape to Witch Mountain. And I love running Return to Witch Mountain with you know, like Christopher Lee and and Betty Davis, right?
Wednesday
Yes. Yes.
Alex
Now now creates complete chaos. Right. I love those. I love those books. And they were really like hardcore child endangerment for the time.
Wednesday
Oh, yeah.
Alex
Really like looking back, that would be not so cool these days.
Wednesday
Yeah, it is like a Scooby Doo level of like, hey, we're going off on an adventure. See you when we see you.
Alex
Exactly.
Wednesday
Just like, oh,
Alex
Right, exactly. And so, you know, I remember, it like, I was, I was staying over at ah at a friend's house, I was like, 12, 13 years old. And I remember this is notable. You remember, there was there was a There was a children's toy called slime.
Wednesday
Yes.
Alex
Like slime was very popular. This is showing my age. Slime was popular there. I remember that was such a cool thing.
Wednesday
And it came in the little trash can.
Alex
Yes.
Wednesday
Like the little plastic trash can. Yeah, we thought that was good.
Alex
Absolutely. Absolutely. And just like looking back, you know, you just you just wonder, you know, what they were thinking. um But at the time, it's it seemed like a good idea. And so, you know, I was staying over at at at my friend's house and, you know, Saturday morning cartoons came on. And then they had this movie called The Legend of Hell House, right? ah Legend of Hell House with Rodney McDowell and just, it was based on, you know as you know, because it's a classic, it's absolute classic. It was based on the Richard Matheson novel oh and with with a screenplay by him and oh my effing God, This movie is like, what was it about this, this spoiler alert, this guy who is um um some sort of like, you know, occultist mastermind who has somehow channeled the energies of, of, you know, this like the, the, the powers of darkness and and and and created all these alters that but manifest as ghosts and telekinetic events, right? yeah and and um And so you had things like you like you know a you know sexual assault by a zombie and um you know the-
Wednesday
Well, the cat.
Alex
The cat, right? Yes,
Wednesday
yeah
Alex
and and the and the scene where it's you know the this woman is like um crushed by an enormous crucifix
Wednesday
yeah
Alex
the chap in the chapel of hell, you know just the concept. of like like you know i um I forget who who says this, but you know, the the person who's introducing Hellhouse says, this is the K2 of haunted houses. And like, to me, that was like, made the hair on the back of my neck stand up so straight. It's like, because, you know, back in the day, and and we know, you know, we know we're we're old school, right? listen Back in the day, horror movies meant something. I mean, ah tagline the the previews, it was was so iconic. You know, you you would you would talk about it, you you go to school, right, to talk about these movies with your friends. And have you seen, like, The Incredible Melting Man? You know, and all these these movies that they came came out at the time, it was like 1976, 1977, right? ah hu Those were movies that that ah that were there were real movies somehow. It felt, if you know you know, you had practical effects, you know, like a you had um you know actual, like, you know, literature being transformed into, um and you know, cinematic works of art. You had, you know, The Exorcist, you had the Omen, you had all of these movies that came up. And, you know, one after the other after the other, it's a Sentinel, right? And-
Wednesday
Oh yeah.
Alex
Right. And I just, I just remember I was, I fell in love with horror right then and there if I hadn't already been in love with horror since I was a little kid. I was literally born on Halloween, Halloween day 1966, right? So it was a Halloween baby.
Wednesday
ah
Alex
And, you know, and so all things dark and delicious are, you know, that's, that's my home. That's where I live.
Wednesday
yes yeah yeah with you
Alex
Yeah.
Wednesday
And and the seventies were such a brilliant time, not just for theatrical horror. but they were making tv horror in the seventy s that was just exceptional there was that movie the early movie about the warrens that had jeffrey demunn in it
Alex
right
Wednesday
that when michael calls with michael douglas trilogy of terror i think in
Alex
relative terror with with karen black
Wednesday
yeah and and yeah And don't be afraid of the dark. No.
Alex
Right.
Wednesday
Don't be afraid of the dark. That's the one where they move into the house and the infantilized wife keeps seeing the little monsters that.
Alex
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Wednesday
Yeah. I mean just a great great time. We actually had a horror movie host in Detroit called Sir Graves Gasly and he was on every Saturday. And that was where I. i learned to love horror that and i i mean the ja the jaws trailer i think left an imprint on my boy
Alex
yeah oh oh yes
Wednesday
afraid of sharks forever
Alex
yes and just a few years later right and you had the the shining trailer oh my god
Wednesday
yeah
Alex
the blood coming out of the elevator doors well and Jack Nicholson like slowly coming into frame with that
Alex
right
Wednesday
just psychotic like wow that
Alex
yes
Wednesday
I would rather face Michael Myers than that guy that guy looks like
Alex
I know right I know right and and then and then you have the that that that Wendy Carlos score you know they with just played like a like you know, the trailers on TV, I just remember it was like they had that eerie Wendy Carlos score and you had like some scene of the staircase or something with Shelly Duvall and you didn't know what was happening.
Wednesday
Right.
Alex
and and And you know, like these days, like you might as well have seen the entire movie, they show they show everything and like they they try to check all the boxes, you know, back back then they left everything to the imagination. They also had like the Suspiria, remember the Suspiria trailer?
Wednesday
Yep, yep.
Alex
Right. Where, you know, it's like this woman with this long hair, and it was almost like a takeoff on um that scene in Psycho, right? you know, she turns around and it's this, it's this skull, it's this mummy and you know, and then the pulsing veiny letters of Suspiria, right?
Wednesday
Yep. And the crazy thing about that is that like, well, Suspiria is such a weird film anyway, that seeing it way too young, Didn't really clear up any of the mysteries that the trailer was showing me. Like, man, I can't wait to see it what happens, what this is about. Wait, I just watched it and I still don't know.
Alex
Spoiler alert.
Wednesday
If yeah you're listening to this podcast and you don't know spoilers for Suspiria, I can't help you.
Alex
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Death did it. I'm right.
Wednesday
Well, I once I wrote an article once that compared the two Barbaras in the the two versions at the time. we Yeah. Two versions of Night of the Living Dead. and I got an angry, like furious letter from somebody telling me that I spoiled both movies and what the hell did I think I was doing. And at that time, at that time like the remake was 25 years old. like These people did not have a leg to stand on. and yeah like
Alex
Yes, yes, yes.
Wednesday
well but that you know that'll happen like we'll we'll be short on money and i won't have hbo for a couple of months and then it's like come on you assholes with your game of thrones spoilers what's the matter with you
Alex
yeah
Wednesday
but uh yeah that's that's a tricky thing now that people watch things at at drastically different uh times
Alex
right
Wednesday
you know it used to be like that's when the show's on so that's when everybody saw it and right
Alex
Right. Right. Right.
Wednesday
Well, it's it's nice to not have to organize your life around TV anymore. It's like, oh, shit, I haven't watched Walking Dead. And then I went on Twitter. What was I thinking?
Alex
Right. Exactly. Exactly. and And it gives the illusion that we have, you know, the capacity to time travel. You know, it's just not true, man.
Wednesday
Yeah.
Alex
Yeah.
Wednesday
Well, remember when, when TiVo's first came out and people were watching on their TiVo and they were mad because they couldn't fast forward through the commercials, like while the show was on. Cause a buddy of mine actually worked for TiVo and they were getting these like crazy customer service calls and they're like, look, You can fast-forward through the commercials. You just have to start watching the show like 15 minutes late. It's
Alex
yeah
Wednesday
not a time machine.
Wednesday
It's not a time machine. It's not it's not the fucking TARDIS, right? Not gonna tell you the yeah future of television. but
Alex
That would make a great short story. I need to write that story now.
Wednesday
Please do. Please do.
Alex
The future of television.
Wednesday
Right, now you write it and then you submit it to us at sometimes hilarious horror and then we publish it, that's how this works.
Alex
Okay, um sounds good.
Wednesday
So I know that you wanted to talk about Borderlands theory and this is something that I-
Alex
Borderlands, yes.
Wednesday
I know basically nothing about this, so what do you want to tell us about it?
Alex
Yeah, well it's it's quite fascinating actually, you know, my great ah grandfather was a very famous historian. named Herbert Bolson. And he he he was a professor at UC Berkeley um for about 50 years that he had that heritage. And um he was the creator of Borderlands Theory. Now up until Bolson's time, and this was about, he started, he was working in the 30s until he died in the early 50s. And Up until that point, history American history was Plymouth Rock, right? you know the the the The Mayflower, the land of Plymouth Rock and some something with the with the Indians. and you know um and you know look and And truth be told, you know that it was a horrible sort of a genocidal situation. And you know Gloria Anzaldua was a, I don't know how to, I wrote about her, I wrote in my master's thesis for Cal State, Dominguez Hills. she her Her book, Borderlands, essentially took the whole Borderlands theory and then applied it to or her body as as a queer Latina, as say you know as a as a lesbian, of color who who was divided against herself you know by but the homophobia of her family, and and even by other you know other lesbians who claimed that she wasn't enough of one. right and um and so so and And also, the she was the first person to write um in multiple languages. she She used Spanish, she used English, she used Nahuatl. And so she kind of took the borderlands which had been encoded as this white colonialist narrative and she deconstructed that and she took it apart and she showed how everybody in a way is sort of interpenetrated by borderlands, whether a sexuality, whether of nationality, whether regional, her her who you know her family, um the Anzalduas were um we' split between you know you know Mexico and and the United States. And so she also wrote in Kahlo, which is sort of Chicano slang, right? And so and so um this book, when she came up with Borderlands, nobody would touch it with a 10 foot pole. This was absolutely like, who who is who is going to publish this radical queer lesbian ah who's talking about um you know, like her her sexuality, who's talking about things from from a ah perspective that, you know, is considered virtually taboo, right? um Nobody wanted to to deal with that. And she was told that she was told that she couldn't, you know, that nobody would publish this, that that it was just absolutely just, you know, why why why bother? What are you doing, right? um And this this book became an absolute standard for women's studies, for sociology, for, you know, borderline studies, um obviously. um So all of these different areas of academia um were enriched by her and she she was at um UC Santa Cruz, right? So when I discovered, actually I discovered her her work because my my girlfriend who later was my wife, you know I mean, that didn't last long, right? But it
Wednesday
okay
Alex
but but that's another story for another time.
Wednesday
right
Alex
But um but she was um she took a lot of women's studies courses and we went to, UC Davis. And we're, we're both comparative literature majors at UC Davis back in the, you know, between 1987 and 1990, we had graduated from 1990 with a degree in comparative literature. And so she was taking all these issues involved with now, she was taking all of these women's studies courses. And so I would read all this stuff, right? I was just fascinated, you know, like bell hooks. I love bell hooks. I loved, you know, you know, and and I devoured Anzaldúa and Ms. Magazine, because to me, i didn I didn't see this as kind of contradict, I didn't see it as threatening to me, you know, cishet males are like deeply threatened by the idea that there's these other sexual-
Wednesday
What?
Alex
You know what I mean?
Wednesday
I do. Yeah, yeah, you know, you know it's it's like, ah oh, oh, oh, oh, oh my goodness, you know, Um, maybe there's, there's something wrong with you, you know, that to maybe you're not truly, you know, masculine or whatever it is to me, it's like, well, um, you know, everybody grows up, whether or not, you know, it you have queer friends, you have that uncle, you have that family friend, you know, you have the guy you can come to church with, right. And, and so, you know, to me, it was like, one of my favorite people, actually, at my church, um, You know, he would he he um was ah was like a Harvard graduate. He's really, really um brilliant artist and kind of thumb poetic soul. And I had no idea that he was gay, right? It's just okay like, he seemed very elegant. I sort of emulated him. I thought, well, and somebody like Vincent Price, you know, I just didn't, it didn't occur to me that these people had asexuality, you know, back in, you know, when I was that age, I just thought, They seem really cool and elegant.
Wednesday
It's weird that you say that about Vincent Price because when I found out that Vincent Price was getting like, I found out like years and years later when I started reading about his life that he had been married and then divorced. But right lot like, I have no ah reason to think that Vincent Price was gay. As far as I know, he was not and he was totally straight. um But I don't know. But the thing is, if I didn't know, watching his films and seeing him in period costumes and knowing that his favorite hobbies were art collecting and cooking, you know, fine dining and stuff, like, yeah I could see how people might make that leap.
Alex
Well, it's it's not a leap because he was very definitely bi.
Wednesday
really
Alex
yes
Alex
yeah
Wednesday
i i had no idea
Alex
and he was really
Wednesday
in that case my head cannon says um peter laurie
Alex
peter lorre peter lorre why not peter lorre yeah yes
Wednesday
it's head cannon now
Alex
the cask of amontillada right
Wednesday
No doubt.
Alex
Yes.
Wednesday
The one where they're tasting the wine and making all those faces, I really love that.
Alex
I'm not sure. I'm not sure I want to follow where my brain just went, but, you know. Yes. Yes. I went there. You know, there was a dungeon hall scene. And so, yeah. Oh, my.
Wednesday
Oh, my. That's not a pendulum. All right, now I am aware that brain disorders are something that you and I have in common. I actually have a TBI from childhood. ah So far the impact has been minimal, but I am starting to feel it as I age.
Alex
oh
Wednesday
You're actually dealing with apraxia. So how how has that impacted you?
Well, it's it's it's very interesting. i've I've been kind of forced to become a one-stop shop as far as like, you know, I had to research neurological disorders and because i will I've been sort of essentially like misdiagnosed and gaslighted by Kaiser Permanente doctors for for just going on, I don't know how many years now, more than five years. um But my official diagnosis is of apraxia. Apraxia is something as a disorder that um involves unlearning learned skills. And there's two kinds, it's a developmental disorder, you know, most people who have apraxia have it from birth. um Then there's the other kind, which is called acquired apraxia, which is um acquired as the result of traumatic brain injury could be inflammation, it could be stroke, It could be a number of things. Now, oh this disorder I have, nobody seems to know what it is. It's quite mysterious. The only clue is that there's structural damage and that there's white matter white matter disease as well. So it affects both but areas of my, particularly having to do with the temporal parietal area, temporal varietal area affects, you know, gait movement coordination, ah have large large and small motor movements and it affects language. And it's, you know, it's, and it's ah involved with things like aphasia. ah So it's quite, um it's quite horrifying. I am body horror. And so so, you know, I started out for, I mean, it was like, i' I am also neurospicy. And, you know, all my life, which is something that was very traumatic for me, because this negotiating a world with, I have dyscalculia, which not only affects my ability to understand you know mathematics, but also spatial relationships, distances between objects. um
Wednesday
That's interesting. I actually don't have a sense of direction. That's one of the things that my head, like I have no sense of it. I can memorize like streets and stuff, but I i could never like use a map to figure out where I am. And that yes is limiting, certainly.
Alex
Yes, it's it's very limiting. And for for me, you know, when people could read maps and talk about directions, it was like, to me, that was some sort of like amazing superpower that they had.
Wednesday
Like a code that I am not privy to.
Alex
Right. And especially living in L.A. lake I lived in L.A. for 20 years. And in L.A. everything is about, you know, like, you know, you take the 405, you know, you know, and I'm probably going to get it wrong. Just the 405 goes northeast, you know, or or you so south to north or west to east, whatever. I have no freaking idea.
Wednesday
Good news. I won't know the difference.
Alex
But but but you know, it's funny because do you ever that Did you ever see the SNL um sketch called the Californians?
Wednesday
Yes.
Alex
Yes. You see, you know what I'm talking about, right? ah it's It's all, well, when you take the all the the four or five North and you get off of the you know Pacific Coast Highway and then you and Fred Armisen is in all those sketches and Kristen Wiig. and It's just it's says so true, right? So I'd be i'd be sitting there going, what the hell hell are you talking about? i So isolated, you know, and I spent most of my time just on foot because driving and me or it's just not something that's compatible, you know, I'm a hazard, you know, behind the wheel. yeah So to imagine, you know, that, you know,
Wednesday
You mentioned Kaiser Permanente. and um Now, I don't know if everybody knows this. Kaiser Permanente is who Richard Nixon was doing a favor for when he decided to allow ah medical and pharma companies to make a profit on healthcare. care So that was basically the first step toward screwing everyone on healthcare. care
Alex
oh oh yes
Wednesday
so you know i'm I'm very progressive. so Certainly, I think that if you can die from not having something, it should be illegal to make a profit on it. Healthy food, medical care, shelter, you know
Alex
yeah
Wednesday
water. like These things should not be held back for people for a profit. um And I think Reagan did plenty of damage with the HMOs later on, but but the beginning of that is Kaiser Permanente. So, okay, without accusing anyone of anything illegal, how did Kaiser Permanente's care, and I'm using air quotes, I hope everyone can see me using the air quotes, um how how did their care impact your condition and your recovery?
Alex
Okay, well, I'm glad you asked Wednesday. um there was There was, I'm not gonna name any names, but there was a neuropsychologist, a neuropsychologist I saw ah for a one-time ah visit for neuropsychological but testing back in 2019. And if anybody were to, well, I'm not gonna give their name, but I've, i I post about them all the time on social media. So anybody who, you know, looks at my Facebook page, I wrote a scholarly article about, about this person, the neuropsychologist, Kaiser Permanente, Roseville facility, which I, which is uploaded now it's on academic EDU.
Wednesday
Oh, wow.
Alex
And so this person really she, I came, in I came in, I'm like, I'm slurring my words, I can't walk straight, I can't walk in a straight line. I'm in terrible pain, right? And ah so this woman is very, very compassionate woman, you know, I was taking this test, and you have to memorize, like, images and, and words, and then we count them back. And the the whole test, it, you know, it it covers like all five cognitive domains and it takes four hours. It's really rigorous and intensive.
Wednesday
I am familiar.
Alex
And traumatic, right? And so, and so, you know, when I had just had my 51st birthday at the time, when she showed me these images of like birthday cakes and clowns and stuff, you know, because like, well, you know, I always loved being born on Halloween and still until the the brain disease and then I dreaded having birthdays altogether because I was still alive, quite frankly. And and so so when I saw these images of clowns and birthday cakes
00:29:47.17
Speaker
Who could, we're gonna talk about clown horror, but-
Wednesday
We are.
Alex
um I just, I started to cry. You know, this woman, she didn't even look up from her notes.
Wednesday
Oh my God.
Alex
and And, you know, I had to like look around and say, okay, so I didn't want to get snot all over her. So I found her box of tissues and, you know, I sort of comforted myself and she and she said, what's going on? You know, and I said, well, I said, well, you know, I used to be smart and I'm sad right now. And so at the end of the session, she said, well, you know, you have something called conversion disorder. I don't know if you know what conversion disorder is, but for the for for your listeners, conversion disorder is used to be called hysteria.
Wednesday
Oh, well, that's condescending as hell.
Alex
Right. I mean, it's it's it is actually a diagnosis that's been around since for like 5,000 years.
Wednesday
I'm a sex writer. I know all about diagnosing people with hysteria because they're having a very normal reaction to what they're living with.
Alex
Exactly.
It's it's called hysteria yeah
Alex
all hysteria. hysteria.
Wednesday
I'm there. I'm with you on that.
Alex
Right. So then then, you know, most famously Sigmund Freud called it, you know, his you know, you know, conversion hysteria. And of course, he diagnosed all his female patients with that to this day.
Wednesday
You don't say.
Alex
Yes, yes, right. I don't say, right. And so um there so so there was and there's too much to go into, but basically there was some some garbage studies that were conducted in Scotland, that which which which were the the results were really kind of um distorted and lied about essentially. And there was a claim that like one out of four people who presented as a neurological patient had conversion disorder, which is essentially hysteria. like your your Like your brain like is manufacturing these symptoms because you can't deal with some sort of psychological trauma. And so so she said, I had conversion disorder. I said, you know, I'm pretty sure I have brain damage. She said, no, you need to see a psychiatrist.
Wednesday
Oh, for fuck's sake.
Alex
For fuck's sake.
Wednesday
But they I mean, there are ways to test for that. Before you tell someone they're wrong, find out whether or not they're right. I went through the same thing. yeah I knew there was something wrong with my brain. I mean, not exactly the same thing, but similarly,
Alex
yeah
Wednesday
And when I found out that there was legitimate head trauma, that they could point to parts of my brain and say, yeah damage damage, damage
Alex
damage
Wednesday
I felt relieved. You know, was like, ha, you fuckers, I wasn't lying. And
Alex
right
Wednesday
you shouldn't, I mean, these things are bad enough without having to fight your medical team or fight your family or fight people that want to tell you that what happened to you didn't really happen.
Alex
Didn't really happen, right? Yes. Did it really happen?
Wednesday
That is terrifying.
Alex
It was terrifying. And it gets worse. It gets worse. Okay. i See, I've been seeing a neurologist who happens to be the chief of neurology where, you know, in Sacramento, I had these MRIs that, you know, these MRIs, which clearly, clearly showed major major atrophy, massive atrophy, particularly in the parietal lobes, which is where you get apraxia. And and you know he told me that that that the that my MRIs were stone cold normal. He said there was nothing wrong with them. And that and that i had and i I had conversion disorder. Oh my gosh, it's it's a conversion disorder, right? And he said, your brain is stone cold normal. And the reason that you have all these symptoms is because you're so sad, you're so traumatized at no longer having this job that you had eight years previously.
Wednesday
Weird. I mean, that's just such a weird... First of all, that has to be a theory. If if someone is advancing that, they are they aren't basing that on a verifiable fact, they're guessing.
Alex
They're guessing, right? but were the the for The reason was that this woman was up in his ear saying, oh yeah, you know, this guy is, he has nothing wrong with him. He doesn't have brain damage. You know, what are you talking about, right? He has conversion disorder. So at this point, I was so heartbroken. This was about 2020. I left Kaiser. I mean, I was still a member, but I was like so fucking heartbroken that I left for two years.
Wednesday
Now, let me ask you this. A lot of people who get misdiagnosed. um I know I certainly did. And and some of our our previous guests have end up self-medicating, which can lead to issues with substance abuse. I mean, what where did you land on that?
Alex
Yeah, I kind of. have a problem. I did have a problem with substance abuse. yeah I will admit that you know when I was writing, like when I wrote, like um and I'll just frankly admit this, because I've admitted this before, that you know I was the author of a novel called Death Moon. And Death Moon came out from Black Flame Press. ah Black Flame is a concept from the Temple of Set. you know I don't know if you're familiar with that.
Wednesday
I am.
Alex
But but but it you know Black Flame Books was this publisher and in England that that did the World of Warcraft, Warhammer, and um they had ah they had a contract with New Line Cinema. um He said, hey, matey, would you like to write a Jason book? And I was like, what? you know, Jason, like Jason Voorhees, you know, like, if I did, yes, like I know what Jason Voorhees is. And I just happened to be a huge fan of Friday the 13th, who isn't
Wednesday
right
Alex
right. So it's like, oh, my God, but oh, my fucking God. And so he said, yeah, you know, you know, Jason X, I was like, yeah, you know, it's it's a really funny film.
00:36:57.01
Speaker
I mean, it gets a lot of oh yeah crap, but, you know, it's a very satirical, very funny movie. It's like, yeah. and So, we so basically there was a novelist named Pat Cattigan, who is sort of considered one of the legends of cyberpunk, right? She, she wrote, and she wrote, you know, one of her most recent novels is she adapted William Gibson's screenplay, unrealized screenplay for Aliens 3 as a novel. And so she wrote the novelization of Jason X. Then the sequel was written by a woman named Nancy Q. Patrick, who's very well known sort of like gothic, you know, she's really like, you know, you know, Nancy Kirkpatrick is right. And then, um and, and she's, she's been a friend for for years. oh And then, so she wrote, um okay, so Pat Katigan wrote, like, Jason X, she also wrote, um Jason, Jason, the experiment, Nancy Kirkpatrick wrote planet of, Planet of the Beast, right? And then I was given the fourth Jason X novel called, which I call Death Moon, right? And then, okay but at the time I was just becoming like, I just, you know, I was working for a secretarial firm and I just completed my master's degree and I was applying for jobs at, you know, community colleges and stuff. And in a long story short, I got my first teaching job at Community College as an English instructor. It was about, you know, 2004. So, well, this is a lot of stress because I'm dealing with like writing this novel for New Line Cinema, right? I'm dealing with all this and being a teacher. And yeah, I did a little bit of substance abuse, you know, because, you know, sort of like cough syrup, you know, because, because it's dissociative, you know, and there's, you know, the, the students are very rude to me, you know, ah very, very rude and very hostile to me. And I was working at the school in the projects and, you know, I didn't know what I was doing because they don't teach you about classroom management. And I just assumed that it was going to be like, you know, going to be like UC Davis or something, or even American River College here in Sacramento. I didn't realize that there was a whole new thing where I was going to be considered like the enemy. And so, you know, yeah, I did kind of get a little bit loaded. And, you know, so At this point, it's like like I'm never going to be have a teaching job again, so you know I can say these things. Who's going to hire me? right I'll be frank and I will admit that. you know But it's not like having substance abuse disorder is foreign to horror writers like we all know know Stephen King. right um a lot of people who, a lot of authors, a lot of creative people have substance abuse disorders. I mean, it's just a fact and it's just a, you know, so, um, but I didn't, I haven't, you know, I've been clean and sober since 2012. Yeah. And thank you. I just, you know, it's not like I can ah really I really don't have an extra bandwidth to play around with because of of the brain disease. It's so affected, it's so cut into my executive functions and things like that. I don't have extra bandwidth to indulge, to to trip or whatever.
Wednesday
you know uh if we could dramatically change the subject
Alex
please do yeah
Wednesday
clown horror
Alex
yes
Wednesday
talk discuss tell me about clown horror
Alex
talk amongst yourselves i'll give you a topic you know
Wednesday
well i i have read a fair bit of clown horror because uh oh what is his name jeremy ship am i thinking of the right dude i
Alex
okay jeremy ship right bizarro yeah
Wednesday
Like that that the attic clowns guy. Yeah.
Alex
Attic clowns, yes.
Wednesday
Yeah, i've I've definitely read a bunch of those. So yeah what is your philosophy with regard to horrific clownery?
Alex
Actually, well, this involves kind of I have a of a very terrifying in in real life encounter with a person who is an actual clown, a literal clown. And I've been stalked by this person. Do people think I'm joking? I've been stalked by this clown since 2014. 2014.
Wednesday
Okay. Stalking is terrifying. Nothing funny about it.
Alex
Nothing funny about it. Right. It's nothing funny about it. This person just tried to destroy my career. And and essentially I had a pre-flipped relationship with this person And they were so butt hurt by the fact that I cut off from them that they did such things as reported that I was a sex offender.
Wednesday
Oh, yikes.
Alex
So yeah, I have-
Wednesday
It's a tricky thing for horror people in general, because I think outside the horror community,
Alex
yeah
Wednesday
when people hear things like that about horror people, They are often more likely to believe them because there are still way too many people that think, well, what the hell kind of person would go around writing things like this? And just
Alex
yes
Wednesday
forgetting the whole depiction versus endorsement argument, for example.
Alex
yeah
Wednesday
Like, yes, I portrayed that behavior in my book. It doesn't mean I want to go out and do that. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Alex
Quite the opposite, right. Yeah. I'm actually a very cuddly person. you know I'm a spider saver. you know i most but Most people are, you know, like most I mean, I'm extreme horror splatter punk author, you know, and I'm just such a cuddly bear, like, um not in the sexual sense, but in more in the like the animal. If you found me in the woods, you know,
Wednesday
let's please let's not do man versus bear in the woods, please.
Alex
I would not. I would not hurt or harm you, but I probably would not be in the woods because I would be terrified of becoming lost in the woods.
Wednesday
Right.
Alex
So we're not doing man versus bear. And so we're
Wednesday
hogging the blueberries. Yes. Yeah. So I love bears. Bears are kind of but like a family totem, you know, identify as a small bear. um I literally had a small bear as my Facebook profile.
Wednesday
So how how does get you back around a clown horror?
Alex
Well, because um this, well, it was actually just a coincidence that this person happened to happen to be a clown that I was involved with and and a horror author for a period of time, a very short period of time. And this person was doing a book of sort of clown horror, actually, that that they had planned. And they were going to do a series of anthologies that were had to do with clowns. right So I was initially involved with that. um after the After our relationship broke up and then you know the consequent to like hell, I came up with this thing. So if I had all this clown horror stuff lying around, I decided to put out an anthology called the Floppy Shoes Apocalypse. And I actually got Ramsey Campbell.
Wednesday
Oh wow. Neat.
Alex
Ramsey Campbell, the master, um contributed a chapter from his book, Grin of the Dark, his novel, Grin of the Dark, which I highly recommend to your listeners. And it's the most savage like combination of like cosmic horror and clown horror imaginable.
Wednesday
Wow.
Alex
And so, so basically my take on clowns is, you know, irrespective of this person, I actually didn't, I hadn't planned to talk about her, but, um is that, you know, clowns are uncanny. I mean, I think that sort of like that, you know, Freud talked about Dustin Heimlich, you know, the uncanny. And I think that that clowns are uncanny because there they come to us as masks and and they're they're enigmatic, okay? So on the one hand, you have association with childhood birthday parties, dubious hilarity and hijinks. On the other hand, you have John Wayne Gacy.
Wednesday
Right.
Alex
And Pogo. And so, you know, I i don't,like to have a knee-jerk reaction to clowns, but they are legitimately terrifying. And I think it was around 2016 or so that there was reports of clown attacks.
Wednesday
Yeah, they there were people dressing up as clowns and just like standing around with knives and just scaring the hell out of people. And then, yeah, I think I heard there was one person that actually attacked someone.
Alex
This is true. there was There was a clown that literally like physically murdered somebody, the clown killer. I mean, I forget what their name was, but you can look it up. Your listeners can look it up like the clown killer.Yeah.
Wednesday
Let me ask you this.
Alex
Yes.
Wednesday
Are you familiar with the work of the visual artist, Joshua Hoffine, and he's a photographer?
Alex
um Not as such, but.
Wednesday
I think that I recommend to you and to listeners, certainly.
Alex
Yes.
Wednesday
He has a wonderful eye for juxtaposing ah childhood innocence and absolute terror.
Alex
I can see where we're going up with this. yeah
Wednesday
Well, I got to interview him of when I wrote for for zombie zone news like years ago and and asked him about some specific pieces of his heart, his art. And we talked about clowns specifically. And what he was saying was that People are inherently disturbed by a perceived deformity in the human face. you know all All ableism aside, that like yeah that is one of the reasons that some people, like children in particular, will have just a knee-jerk negative reaction to a clown Because if you don't understand that that's supposed to be a fun thing and you look at it objectively, There are plenty of clowns. like I mean, I don't know if you've seen the Hell House LLC movies, but clowns can be so fucking terrifying.
Alex
Oh yeah oh yeah.
Wednesday
And I think people just take their kids off to, you know, flying circus or whatever and wonder why their kid is sitting there terrified. Like, no, it's it's maybe, you know, there are so many things at a circus that when you look back on it now, it's like, So what we have here is a bunch of enslaved animals forced to do tricks, and then a bunch of terrifyingly dressed humans, you know, cartwheeling around like it's all in good fun. What is this?
Alex
You know, like, apropos of that. I have, well, I've written several stories about this character, also for my sub-stack and of my book, The Doom Hippies, and and um my most recent collection, The Fall of the House of Chimera. I have this character called Rinaldo, the world's smallest circus bear. And it's a kind of a darker Paddington.
Wednesday
Aw.
Alex
yeah you know So Rinaldo kind of owns, has ownership of being a you know a a a colonized and enslaved bear. you know he's He's exploiting himself. you know And he's an empower he's an empowered bear. so So it's like, we were talking about, I know we don't want to talk about man versus as bear, but i i did I did tell you, you know, that I kind of bear identified, you know, and I really do identify with Ronaldo, you know, because he's like me if he was like a, if I was like a small, like a circus bear. So yeah, so that's like a whole minor segue, yeah. but
Wednesday
Well, you've also got some charity anthologies coming up.
Alex
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Thank you for bringing that up.
Wednesday
We want to hear all about them.
Alex
OK. So first ah first up, I have i have two. I'd like to first discuss Hand of Doom. a Hand of Doom is the first ever literary tribute to the band Black Sabbath. Myself and my co-editor, JC Macek III, who's a well-known music journalist. And he and I, you know, I came up with this idea, but I wanted to do a a sort of a tribute anthology to to Black Sabbath, because I've had this idea for years. And I thought, it would be interesting if we got some writers, you know, turn loose some horror authors, science fiction authors, and even like detective authors, whatever, on like writing stories that were sort of like inspired by the titles of Black Sabbath songs, you know, not literally taking, yes, go ahead.
Wednesday
there were ah There were a few of those anthologies kind of recently. I know in 2022, I got sick and so I wasn't able to contribute but there was a Alice Cooper themed anthology going
Alex
yeah
Wednesday
around. And then like a year a year later, there was one for Jethro Tull
Alex
Yes.
Wednesday
and I really was hoping I could get in on that and do some kind of crazy songs from the wood thing and I just,
Alex
right
Wednesday
I couldn't get it together in time and I was really bummed. so yeah Black Sabbath, that's a wonderful topic. I love it.
Alex
Thank you. Thank you. and and and so it was like do you know asking writers you know Asking authors whether they wanted to contribute a story to an anthology inspired by the songs of Black Sabbath is basically like offering free weed. You know, like nobody's gonna turn that offer down. I am very, very, very strongly involved with Hand of Doom. And um feel free to ask me any questions, but basically as far as the charity is concerned, this is really, really wonderful kind of confluence of engagement with with ah charity organizations. Now, you know, Ronnie James Dio, he was, you know, obviously everyone knows Dio, right? Dio was one of his favorite charities that he did ah concerts for, you know, at Irvine Meadows. He did an album, he did several songs to for the for the charity, it's called Children of the Night. And, you know, Children of the Night is an organization that was founded by Dr. Lois Lee, she's a sociologist, is a doctor in in sociology, become one the world's leading ah nonprofit organization that works to to rescue um children from, you know, ah prostitution and and pornography.
Wednesday
Yeah, I've actually covered some of their work um yeah or, you know, my my day job because it's it's good work. And the thing is the numbers on that.
Alex
yes
Wednesday
I mean, this is something that people, as you say, have been working on actively since the seventies.
Alex
Yes.
Wednesday
The numbers are not good.
Alex
I would recommend to your listeners that to check out, you know, just go on on YouTube and, you know, like a search for, you know, Lois Lee David Lynch Foundation.
Wednesday
I certainly hope that this kind of work brings attention. like I mean, people still just don't know enough.
Alex
They certainly don't.
Wednesday
you know People are arguing about whether or not trans people should be allowed in libraries or whatever the hell.
Alex
Right?
Wednesday
And meanwhile, there are these very serious things that are happening that not nearly enough people are are knowing about and acting on. so
Alex
Absolutely, absolutely. yeah
Wednesday
Every success for that.
Alex
Yeah, yeah. And so all proceeds, you know, all proceeds from hand of doom, literary tribute to to Black Sabbath will be donated to Dr. Lois Lee.
Wednesday
You've got another, Antho, that you're working on. Now, let me just intro this. We Are Gregor um is about ah disability and about people.
Alex
Yes.
Wednesday
I mean, we we all know who Gregor Samza is and if he does. Look it up, it's a Kafka thing. um is like
Alex
Right, but makes you feel like a bug.
Wednesday
ah okay But my understanding is
Alex
yeah
Wednesday
that even before stories were coming in and everything, someone responded that the title, We Are Gregor, is yeah is is ableist. Now, what is your response to that?
Alex
Ableist? Okay, well, first of all, this person is not an intelligent person. I came up with a We Are Gregor with talking with my friend and a colleague, Pixie Bruner, who has Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. She's a cancer survivor. She's a major poet, very, very good poet, and she's the author of a book of poems called The Body as Haunted, right?
Wednesday
Okay.
Alex
We were talking about disability, we were talking about our both having disability. And I came up with this idea like, what if we did a collection of short stories, all of the stories would begin sort of like I am Gregor. And, you know, that kind of expanded the woman who, you know, when, so when, when I was first started talking about putting it out there that we were doing this anthology, this woman responded that, first of all, she said, why did you call it we are Gregor? I said, um Gregor Sampson. She said, Oh, well, that's, that's a terrible association. because it has overtones of horror, you know, that the circumstances were very horrific for Gregor.
Wednesday
well yes
Alex
And I was like, well, yeah, that's exactly the point because if you're like fucking disabled, um it's a horror story. I'm living body horror and so is Bixie Bruner and so our, you know, everybody who identifies, I see with Gregor, it's a very positive thing because we're empowering ourselves by taking back the reins of the narrative and and instead of being talked about, we are talking about ourselves.
Wednesday
Well, and it's fine to not appreciate the metaphor or to not agree with it, but don't try to take it away from people that are dinner using it and that you know are getting value from it.
Alex
Right.
Wednesday
And that's,
Alex
yeah,
Wednesday
I get it because it actually harkens. It makes me think about trigger warnings
Alex
Yes.
Wednesday
because trigger warnings are such a big deal in the industry now. Right. My thinking is as a horror person, once I say, hey, watch out for this, this and this trigger. Yeah. I can publish any damn thing I want because I warned you.
Alex
Yeah. You know, actually, I don't know if you're friends with Pixie, but you should friend her. um She actually, she actually has a poem called trigger warnings in the body as haunted. So Alex, we're actually nearing the end of our interview time. So is there anything that you want to talk about before we get into the madlib?
Alex
Oh boy.
Wednesday
Sometimes I do ask my guests, if they have questions for me, that's, that's an option, but whatever else you want to cover but before we get to the madlib.
Alex
I actually. Believe it or not, I have no idea what madlibs are,
Wednesday
What?
Alex
but I'm about to learn. i um I don't know. I don't know these things, right? I've been out of touch. I am a caveman, Your Honor.
Wednesday
Well, ah they've been around since the 60s, sir. So this is really a House on Haunted Hill situation.
Alex
I published the first volume of the junk merchants, a literary tribute to William S. Burroughs, So I'm kind of like hitting like all of the majors. you know I don't think that there's any one author or you know artist or musician or whatever who is more influential on you popular culture, literary culture, art, music, um cinema, you name it, than William S. Burroughs. And so if you're gonna, do an anthology based on you know William S. Burroughs, then you're you you can there's all these different areas that you can explore, right? Because you know he influenced Michel Foucault, the French philosopher. His ideas about um control and how to um disinvest from you know mechanisms of power and control had a profound influence on philosophy and European philosophy a continental philosophy. Here in the United States, we're a little less literate, we're a little less culturally aware. And so, you know, Burroughs is kind of more known as this transgressive writer who, and whether people approach him through like, you know, Naked Lunch, I mean, there's a lot of shock value, there's a lot of transgression in his novels. And that's inspired, I mean, it's basically body horror, right?
Wednesday
Yep.
Alex
Very much like Kafka, and like a combination of Jonathan Swift and Kafka and a carnival barker. And I don't know, you know, oh And so so so so such rich, which which such a rich resource.
Wednesday
Well, let us get into this Mad Lib. Now you are unfamiliar with Mad Libs I hear. This is one of my favorite party games. And it's good because it works with any party. You could do this with kindergartners. You could do this at a key party.
Alex
Okay.
Wednesday
Any party, these things work. um So I'm going to tell you what I need word-wise, and you're going to give me words. I'm going to tell you what part of speech. And sometimes they do things like a number or a body part or a name or
Alex
Alright, okay.
Wednesday
something like that. So I'll tell you. So in the beginning, let's start with one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight nouns is what I need. So just give me a bunch of nouns, make them funny if you want to. uh almost everybody says penis the first time so you know yeah all right let's have them
Alex
so um i have dyscalculia so i'm gonna have to count on my fingers okay
Wednesday
we i'll help you with the counting just give me the nouns
Alex
okay okay penis um apple pie um grandmother um what Las Vegas, that'd be one, two, three, four, five, six, um um rigid, and then cloud.
Wednesday
Okay, cloud. I have, okay, penis, sandwich, grandmother, apple pie, Las Vegas, and cloud. So far, so good, but I do need two more nouns. Wait, I'm miscounted. I think I did miscounted.
Alex
You did miscount it.
Wednesday
Hey, I'm a word person, not a number person.
Alex
Oh, that's your excuse. That's your excuse.
Wednesday
All right, so two more nouns.
Alex
Okay, um billboard and oh gelatin.
01:02:42.84
Speaker
All right, next up, a verb.
Alex
A verb?
Wednesday
A verb.
Alex
Touch.
Wednesday
A part of the body.
Alex
Oh boy, appendix.
Wednesday
And an adverb.
Alex
Um, carefully.
Wednesday
I think you might be the first guest to not ask me what an adverb is. I need one more adverb.
Alex
um slowly
Wednesday
they're not they're not all writers they're not all writers we uh we get people that make fractals here too um an adjective
Alex
okay um uh pronounced
Wednesday
and a part of the body plural
Alex
whoa kidneys
01:03:26.68
Speaker
All right, so now this is the part where I read the Mad Lib and so it puts all your words into a story.
Alex
Ah.
Wednesday Okay, number one, when you receive a birthday penis or a wedding sandwich, ah you should always send a thank you grandmother. When you touch or burp out loud, be sure to cover your appendix and say, I'm carefully sorry. Number three. If you are a man wearing an apple pie on your head and a Las Vegas approaches, it's always polite to tip your cloud. That should be a drug thing. I don't know what it should mean, but that tip your cloud should definitely be a drug expression. When, Number four, when you are at a friend's billboard for dinner, remember it's not polite to eat with your kidneys or take food from anyone else's gelatin or leave the table for anyone else. ah When meeting your friend's parents, always try to make a pronounced expression by greeting them slowly. ee, irreverent. That's what we do here. Alex, it was just lovely having you. I am so glad that we could do this.
Alex
me too. um
Wednesday
Is there anything you want to say to listeners before we depart?
Alex
Yeah, oh I need people to read and ref review my books, man. I've got so many books, but I want people to buy Here's the Deal Chunks, a Barf Zorro anthology, Barf Zorro. I want people to buy and read and and care for the Doom hippies. ah the fall of the House of Chimera, K-A-I-M-E-R-A. And and also so to buy my my dark poetry collection called The Flowers of Doom, please. I don't, you know, nobody buys these things, you know? And they're really good, you know? They're really good.
Wednesday
Well you know, That's the thing is that, writing a good book. We all thought writing a good book was the key to getting people to do.
Alex
Yes. Okay.
Wednesday
No, we, but we all thought writing a good book was the key to getting people to read it. And it turns out that no, people who want to read books need to know that your specific book exists or otherwise, you know, masterpieces are going to be just sitting around unread and that's no good. So.
01:06:25.29
Speaker
Yes. I would also like to remind everybody that The Mentally Oddcast is sponsored by Sometimes Hilarious Horror, so supporting the magazine is a great way to support us. um And actually, that's all for now, so thanks everybody for listening. We will see you next week.
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